E039: STEM Returners leading the talent comeback

Mark McBride-Wright 0:06
Mark, hello. Welcome to the next episode of the safe leader podcast. I’m your host, Mark McBride-Wright, and I’m delighted today to be joined by Natalie desti, who is the founder of STEM returners, an award winning initiative that creates supported roots back into STEM careers for professionals returning after a career break driven by a mission to tackle inequality in engineering, Natalie has reshaped how employers view career gaps, unlocking a powerful, experienced and often overlooked talent pool. Her work directly challenges structural barriers to inclusion, creating paid placement programs that combine real world experience with coaching, mentoring and long term opportunities. Natalie’s career began in technical recruitment, evolving into sector wide advocacy for diversity, equity and belonging, particularly in the defense and maritime industries. In 2024 she was named winner of the women in defense equity of opportunity award recognizing her tireless efforts to improve access in equity across stem Natalie continues to lead national conversations about the future of inclusive engineering workforces. Natalie, welcome to the

Natalie Desty 1:22
podcast. Thank you so much for having me.

Mark McBride-Wright 1:26
So you and I, we founded our businesses at the same time. I think we did, yeah, we did, yes, yes. I remember we met in coffee shops in chinham, in Basingstoke, with our with our big ideas, yeah, our big ideas. I can’t remember if our kids were with us at the time. I was probably pushing an upper baby pram or, Oh no, I got my in laws to where to babysit, to

Natalie Desty 1:53
babysit, and I think mine was probably at nursery at that point. Yeah, yeah.

Mark McBride-Wright 1:57
We were squeezing it in in the hours so so for for our listeners, then what? What first inspired you to create a platform that would help returners back to stem

Natalie Desty 2:13
so prior to stem returners, I had, like you said, a career in recruitment, and I saw a huge amount of people who found it essentially impossible to return through standard channels. And being in recruitment, I was almost part of the problem. You know, I’d see these people trying to apply for positions, and simply because they had a career break in, compared to somebody without one, they were essentially filtered out at those early stages. And then around the same time, I went to a conference women’s Engineering Society, and one of the speakers said there are 40,000 people, 40,000 women who have left stem and struggling to return. So it was something I was thinking about for a long time, and I was lucky enough to be involved in a working group, an industry working group. And this is where, I guess, where we started in in maritime and defense, and essentially got an opportunity to pilot it. So I piloted a returners program through that kind of working group, proved the concept, and then thought, this is a real passion project for me, so I’m going to try and take it wider, amazing.

Mark McBride-Wright 3:20
So, so you heard a conference, a potential talent pool was not potential. It is a talent pool that’s, that’s, that’s out there 40,000 women, and how, how receptive do you find? Then the audience is, is it? Are people easy to find to build your talent pool well.

Natalie Desty 3:42
So we started in 2017 and we’ve got about 23,000 people who are registered now and looking for an opportunity to return. And certainly not just, not just women. We did some work with the government equalities hub that suggested there was 75,000 people who had left stem. So the number, I guess, don’t know what the real number is, but there’s a lot. There’s a lot of people that even though stem industries are really struggling to recruit, there’s a huge amount of people that are kind of outside of those standard recruitment channels. So the number is big, but often returners don’t know that there’s an opportunity to return. And we tend to find returners find out about us through kind of our charity partner organizations that we work with. They might have found out about us through school newsletters, through word of mouth, but I think often returners don’t realize there’s the opportunity to return it, and they they, they usually have tried really hard to return, initially been unsuccessful, and then they’re working in other industries or doing other things, so they’re not applying on job boards. They’re not usually on LinkedIn. They usually outside of the industry, and we’re trying to entice them back,

Mark McBride-Wright 4:52
but you’ve had to be creative then in your outreach channels and your your recruitment channels to get to get. What about thinking back to us both being parents and when? When you’re living the early years life, you know when you’re in parent networks and like NCT groups and things like that, you know the groups that you might join when you have your first kid to learn what it’s like being a being a parent. How? How do you find like do you? Do you track any statistics on likelihood of leaving the workforce after one has had one, one’s first child? For example, when is there a like, how? And then, is there a way that you can get into those audiences to help, you know, stop that mindset creep.

Natalie Desty 5:45
Perhaps, yes, at career break reasons are really, really varied, everything from choice. Some people choose to take a career break. You know, obviously you’ve got physical health, mental health, but the number one reason is, is always going to be care. But interestingly, it’s broadly split between maternity and elder care, and this is why there are a lot of women coming back from career breaks. Because, you know, often they are taking the maternity childcare, but they’re also taking the elder care piece. So often you might find that you have people taking two three career breaks, largely unplanned through the life of their career. So it’s very piecemeal about, you know, where we’d kind of find returners, yes, NCT groups, yes. You know, lots of different online forums that might look, you know, look at parents or provide support to parents, but it’s almost individuals in in, you know, quite large forums that we’re trying to attract. So the school networks piece has actually been really successful, because we usually find that return is in some way, are linked to a local school. So if we’re running a returners program in, say, Cambridge, we’ll try and get all of the local schools in Cambridge to put that in their newsletter. Because a returner is usually, if they’re not a parent, then awfully often a family member or link to their their local school. And it’s very much a local campaign. So if we’re running a program for an organization, as I said in Cambridge, it’s a lot of local outreach, because usually returners, of course, it are often as well, tied to the the area that they’re looking to return to

Mark McBride-Wright 7:22
and that that’s important anyway, isn’t it, because your your your program ultimately wants to lead to some permanent role.

Natalie Desty 7:31
Yeah, that’s an absolute imperative for us. So we, you know, although we provide a return as opportunity, this is about what should be about returning people permanently, not saying work experience isn’t valuable, absolutely is. But we want to return people kind of permanently, and that’s why we always insist with organizations that, yes, it’s a returners program, but there has to be the opportunity of a permanent position. Of course, it has to work for the employer, and it has to work for the returner to whom he might also be testing, you know, going back to work after quite a long period of time out. Or they might be going back to work testing, actually the hours they can commit to because they have commitments outside of work. So but there always has to be the opportunity. And we’ve returned just over 620 people now, and 96% of those have gone on to secure a permanent role. So we’re really proud of that, and we really want to, you know, to stick to that, because, yeah, we don’t want to be providing experience

Speaker 1 8:30
that’s incredible. That’s incredible. That’s what.

Mark McBride-Wright 8:36
Well, I mean, I read, I read statistics about the number of women leaving the industry is still high, the number of people, the number of engineering UK Data, most recent one shows that women in that I think it’s either 34 or 44 can’t remember The lower age band up? I think it’s 3434 to 54. Age band are the highest rate that are leaving the sector. So are you finding it’s like a leaky bucket? You know, you’re doing all this work to, like, get people back in, or bring, bring in people back. But we’re also, like, hemorrhaging talent. We’re losing them and still losing them. So we’re not really doing like a net gain.

Natalie Desty 9:25
It’s interesting, because culture has changed significantly, you know, and culture within kind of engineering, you know, it is a traditional sector. And certain, it’s not just women, you know, lots of different people struggle to thrive in some environments. And I’d say it’s really changed. I’ve been working within the engineering kind of recruitment space for 1718, years, you know, I’ve seen a real change in culture and attitudes and expectations. Things like covid obviously change things. Well, with regards to homeworking, you know, home working, just it wasn’t a thing. Didn’t, didn’t exist, you know, five, five years ago, and but interestingly, we’re still seeing people leave, and it tends to be those people that require something beyond flexible working, you know, actually need to step away, take, take a period of time out. And you know, it is often related to maternity but that elder care piece, as well, as I said, it’s getting people, not just women, but predominantly women still, but it’s getting them at that later career stage, and then they’re struggling to come back. Because we do, we do research every year to see almost what the biggest barrier is to returners this year, and age comes out so strongly. So when people are taking career breaks later, they’re finding it even more difficult to to get back in.

Mark McBride-Wright 10:51
There are some ageism kicking into the and people are living longer. We’re in the sandwich generation, where we’re looking after our young ones, maybe even grandkids as well. But then there’s also that upward care of parents or family members, other members of the family or friends, and that’s all just takes a hit. All just takes a hit on your and sometimes juggling all that is just just too much. So you need that break, you need that stop gap. And then, I

Natalie Desty 11:27
guess, you know you do get, you get periods of leave, obviously, for maternity or paternity or adoption, and often, kind of depends on the policy of the organization. You know, some organizations have incredibly good sick leave, but it’s not equitable for everybody, is it? And everybody gets the kind of same experience and also the same acceptance and support, I think organizations, and there are certainly a lot of people that we’ve spoken to who have returned who felt like they had to take a break. It wasn’t a choice. It was something that they had to do to essentially be able to cope with the scenario that was, that was going on outside of

Mark McBride-Wright 12:12
work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get that. I imagine you’re, you’re, you’re, you experience a lot of there’s a lot of emotion that gets shared from returners as they start to see that there is a potential pathway back for them to return. And so how do you handle that? Do people tend to get excited about it? Do people tend to get quite emotional because it’s quite an overwhelming experience, you know, like they’ve checked out of something mentally, and then all of a sudden, it’s Hey, actually, there is a place for you here. We want you back.

Natalie Desty 12:55
Yeah, we definitely get a lot of emotion. And you know, of all of those 620 people that have returned, it’s genuinely been life changing for every single one of them, every single one has had so many barriers and had a real, you know, reason that that they were struggling, and it’s just made such a difference to their lives. And I think that’s, that’s what really helps it land with an organization, because the hiring managers involved the people that gave them the opportunity in the first place. You know, they’ve all genuinely transfer transformed someone’s life or opportunity. So, yeah, it’s really addictive from from that you know, you really want to help people who, who you know, have just faced such barriers that you know, honestly, let’s be honest, shouldn’t be there just to return to their career that they have the experience, skills and qualifications for. And so, yeah, we get, we do get a lot of emotion. I’d say tears is, is, is the common one, relief. You know, a lot of people are, they want to return because they want to utilize their skills and experience, but they need to, you know, financially, people need to return to work. So yeah, a lot of a lot of relief, and then just, you know, we really have to work on people’s confidence, because they’ve been so kind of battered by the system, by the nose, by, you know, even if they managed to get an interview, then they don’t interview as well as other people, because confidence has been impacted. So we really have to pick people up. And that 12 week kind of program that people initially start on is around that confidence to return to work and you should be there, you have the skills and experience. You know, it’s it’s just the inequality is that lack of equitable opportunity. That means that your break, you know, in comparison to somebody without one, just, just means you don’t get that initial opportunity. They have the skills and experience, and it’s, it’s kind of helping them remember that, and then when we can, because a lot of return is a mid career, so they’ve, they’ve had, you know, quite a lengthy career, and we’ve placed return. At director level, quite often, often, they then become mentors for us, and then they help our next generation of returners coming through, you know, because they really understand and empathize what it’s like to be a returner. And returners have all different types of barriers. You know, you might have a returner. Our longest ever returner was 22 years that they’d had a break. So then coming back into an engineering environment, everything was different. Teams. They’ve never used teams. You know, all of the tech was different. So, yes, it’s really interesting. Sometimes you don’t necessarily know what you’re going to be supporting somebody

Mark McBride-Wright 15:42
with. We always have a difficulty in getting people to put themselves forward for the engineering returner Of The Year category at the engineering talent awards. And you know, of course, I created that category to help platform the people coming through stem returners. And it’s always, well, I, you know, yeah, I would say it’s frustrating when, you know, there’s all 620 people that would be eligible in scope, going going through, but when we’ve spoken about it before, or when I’m sending you that, that sort of, you know, month before the deadline message being like, Natalie, I need you to promote this, which happens every year. It’s, it’s it’s you’ve said before. It’s just that confidence that putting themselves forward. Do you think? Do you think that the experience that they have to go through, like leaves a sort of permanent dent in their confidence, maybe, or

Natalie Desty 16:47
certainly for a long time, you know, it really impacts returners that you know, I don’t know how many you know, often a returner would have applied For over 100 vacancies, 100 positions. I mean, hearing No, or usually not even know, you hear nothing 100 times is is really going to impact you, attending interviews, you know, without that equitable opportunity, and and, and being unsuccessful, you know, really, it really starts to have an impact over time, having to kind of justify, you know, the reason you’ve had a career break, and is it a reason that you know, the hiring manager accepts, you know, people take, as I said, career breaks for all different reasons. It’s not just returning parents. Yes, there’s loads of reasons. You know, none of us are immune to the curveballs of life that mean we might need to take a break relocation. You know, as you know, something you’ve, you’ve recently been through, you know, is, is another big, big reason. So, yes, it does impact. But I’d say, you know, sometimes people aren’t good at putting themselves for awards. Anyway. I know women are terrible at it. I’m terrible at it. I remember, you know, you mentioned the equity of opportunity award. In defense, I would never have put myself forward for that. Thankfully, someone else did, and I was so grateful I wouldn’t have done it, and I should, and I know I should, but, you know, I really understand that. And with returners, we’ve got 23,000 this should be such an easy you know, I’ve got a new program. Should be such an easy job, I should put it out in a newsletter and get in on data with applications they don’t apply. They know they’re suitable. We have to physically phone them and say you’re suitable for this. Let’s get you know. Let’s get your details forward. So, yeah, I don’t know. I think it’s a funny thing with awards. I think a lot of people aren’t good at putting themselves forward. And I think if you’ve been through a difficult experience when we work with returners. So sometimes I might get an opportunity to go on the radio, or might get to do a presentation, and then, you know, I work with them a little bit suddenly they’re a bit more forthcoming in sharing their experience. The other thing is, though, I think sometimes people don’t necessarily want to be seen as a returner. So they want to be, they want to be back at their job, but they almost want it to be under the radar. Because sometimes we’ll say to somebody, can you do us a case study? And it’s all, it’s almost like, I don’t really want you know. I want to label exactly. I don’t, yeah, so I think that’s that plays into it as well.

Mark McBride-Wright 19:17
Yeah, is that age old not wanting to be known for, insert label x. But then equally, if people don’t embrace that element of their identity or wear that badge with honor, then you’re never going to cultivate more learning opportunities for others to you’ve got to see it to be it, you know, you’ve got to hear, hear it to be, I guess, with with being a returner, because it’s not something you physically see about someone. You have to hear their story and then build that empathy with it, and then think that’s me. I see me in that person. And then you get the ripple effect of more, more more people coming out. To to apply then for returner programs, because they think, oh, yeah, that that’s my history that maybe, maybe I could benefit from. And because STEM, STEM careers are usually, on average, higher paying, you know, there’s a higher there’s a they’re well paid roles. So it’s also life changing in the sense that people could transition from lower paid roles in other sectors into higher paid roles that they’re suitably qualified and experienced for? It’s just this, this gap that they’ve got. So zooming out then and thinking about recruitment in general, if we go back. You said you’ve been working in recruitment for 1718, odd years. You know, did, if you went back and met the young Natalie now, like Did, did she always want to go into recruitment? Was that your your calling? How? How did you What did you want? What did you want to be when you were older? And are you doing now what you thought you would be doing.

Natalie Desty 21:01
I’m not sure anyone plans to go into recruitment, and actually it’s, it’s when I started stem returners that was really important for me to set herself up as not a recruiter, because I kind of saw the barriers. So we set ourselves up as a consultancy, or kind of Ed, and I consultancy, really. And what did I want to do when I was younger, want to be a vet. I love Dan. I love animals. Still do got a horse, 13 chickens, a dog, you know? So, yeah, still, still, still love animals. Chicken, all rescues.

Mark McBride-Wright 21:36
How many eggs do you get in your house?

Natalie Desty 21:40
They’re all ex caged girls. So they’re all, they’re all retired. But yeah, we probably get out of the 13, probably half, half, 6666, a day. So yeah, it’s Yes, nice. They have a good little life down there. So yeah, I’d want to be a vet and then in recruitment, like I enjoyed it, because I enjoyed I enjoyed the industry. So I was in maritime and defense, and I really enjoyed working the industry I was working, and I enjoyed helping people, you know, forge their careers after working in engineering. I’d actually quite like to have been an engineer, but that was something I did not hear about that at school at all, you know, wouldn’t have been something I’d heard of, thought of. I liked history, and actually, I did international relations and politics at university. So I clearly didn’t know what I was, you know, planning to do, and fell into recruitment. But the reason I started stem return is, is I really wanted to do something that I felt proud of and that I thought made a difference, and also I wanted to be able to challenge industry, and that is what I didn’t like. As a recruiter, I felt like I had to be largely subservient to the client, you know, and what do you want? And I’ll go and find that or headhunt that person for you. I love being able to challenge now. I love being able to question and say, do you really need that background? Do you really need that experience? And I love it when somebody says, Oh, they’re not, you know, just not quite right? And it’s like, yeah, good. That’s exactly what we’re doing here. You know, this is saying yes to somebody you normally say no to. So I enjoy being a bit of a pain now, I guess.

Mark McBride-Wright 23:20
Oh, and so for people listening who might be thinking about entrepreneurship as because that’s what you are as well, you’re an entrepreneur, running, running and running your own enterprise. What, how have you found on entrepreneurship? How have you what’s been the journey of STEM returners since it was that idea, or the pilot that you got the opportunity to do in the maritime sector, like, How have you grown it, contracted it grown it. You know, what’s been the sort of journey till now? And what are you thinking for the future?

Natalie Desty 23:56
Yeah, it’s been. So it’s been since 2017 so we’re in year eight. It’s, um, it started off really well, you know, it was it, it, it was a having that initial pilot, and that opportunity, particularly with two really big organizations, was fantastic. Gave me the confidence and gave me the opportunity to see that my idea worked. So, you know, that was genuinely invaluable. My problem was I was in a director level role at very good company, and the idea of giving that up to try this hair brand idea just seemed ridiculous. I mean, when is ever the right time? We’ve all, you know, got mortgages, commitments like and looking back, it was crazy. And the, only reason I did it is because I had just had Leo, and yeah, so business is nine, Leo is nine, so I just had Leo, and I couldn’t have the flexibility. I couldn’t be the mum that I wanted to be, and I couldn’t have the flexibility to in the. Role that I was in. So I guess I was almost one of those returners that felt pushed and forced. You know, I didn’t. I had a really good role, and I was almost, you know, pushed to leave because I couldn’t, I couldn’t have the kind of work life balance that I wanted. And obviously, this was pre covid And, you know, flexibility has improved quite a lot, even in recruitment. So I didn’t feel, I guess the risk was lessened, because I was like, I can’t do I’m done. I can’t do this anymore. But it was crazy because I had a mortgage and a new baby and nursery fees, and this was just a made up idea. So yeah, looking back like I’m amazed I was ever brave enough. Because I’m not the world’s I’m very impulsive. I’m do it now type of person, but I’m not the world’s biggest risk taker anyway, obviously, operating within defense, those two organizations ran a pilot. It was successful. They ran it again, and it kind of naturally scaled, really, from there and other organizations started seeing what we were doing. And, yeah, I guess you grow with a bit more confidence, bit more confidence, bit more confidence. We’ve hit a few milestones. You know, hitting 250 returners and 500 returners has given me the push and the confidence, but I will still second guess this, because I’m can be a little bit negative, you know, second guess, you know, does this work? Is there a place for it? You know, I still have all of those worries and all of those panics and, you know, I always think when I get to a milestone, right? Stop questioning this now. You know, this is this. This is working. My next one will be 1000 returners. 1000 is the next milestone. And I think we’ve really grown in confidence around challenging industry and actually saying, Do you know what these barriers aren’t okay? You know, we research every year to understand what those barriers are. As I said, like they change. You know, it’s like every year, like a different group of people is more adversely impacted. And obviously government policy changes different sentiments, you know, from across the pond, you know, in terms of the importance and value of Ed and I, and this is an Ed and I initiative, but it’s also just about bringing skilled professionals back. You know, it’s, it just so happens to be in the kind of UD and I space because of the backgrounds of people who take breaks. You know, tend to be much more diverse, but it’s actually a returners program, you know, for everybody. What’s next? I think, well, definitely get to that 1000 milestone. I want to look at taking it a little bit wider, across different industries. SMEs, you know, we’ve returned 626 people. But, you know, just our database is 23,000 there’s so many more returners, and there are opportunities want to get a lot more involved in sectors like nuclear. You know, nuclear is perfect for us. It’s about bringing people in with different skills and experience. It’s about transferring so just really grow it really until you know the idea, hopefully, which will be in a position where I don’t need to work, will be that returner programs aren’t necessary. You know, career break is just viewed as normal. You know, something that that any one of us might take, you know, through, through our normal career. So although that will be talking myself out of a job, you know, that’s, that’s the end goal.

Mark McBride-Wright 28:36
I wouldn’t be surprised if you get approached for an acquisition. You know, by by, by, I know some recruitment company or or talent consultancy, or is that

Natalie Desty 28:47
something funny? It’s funny that, though, um, because it’s like, I guess, I guess it would, it would depend on the organization, because, you know, the the genuine barriers that exist is the kind of the way organizations recruit, you know, it’s recruiting almost those kind of unicorn candidates, you know, job specs, and the kind of, you know, the best person for the role, but the best person for the role based on My experience, you know my degree, where, you know the kind of background that I have, so I often really try and keep us a bit of an arm’s length of offer. And we work with recruiters, because often, you know, large organizations have like a master vendor, so we often work with and support recruiters. I don’t know if there’s a natural kind of space with recruitment and returners. They just seem to be quite often, quite diametrically opposed. You know, if you think recruitment is finding the an organization’s, you know, view of the best three candidate almost that headhunting. Piece returners, we’re asking them to say yes to somebody they normally say no to so

Mark McBride-Wright 30:11
type of organization to to help you take stem returners to the next level, if, if that was, as an entrepreneur, an avenue you wanted to explore, because it’s that, it’s that balance, isn’t it, between, is it steady growth and then we reinvest profits that we make and therefore Bootstrap. So that’s called bootstrapping. Or so do you grow sustainably and slowly, or do you, or do you then take investment to help unlock a faster rate of growth, you know, but then that investment could come through without having to dilute one’s shares of what we’ve created, or it does mean actually given up equity of your your enterprise, your business. And I don’t know it’s a difficult one. I we were approached for an acquisition once, and I explored it with, you know, solicitors and stuff for a bit, but in the end, I decided to just, yeah, keep, keep my business as was, because I personally didn’t want to like the whole intention for why I created equal engineers was to properly enact change and well, I mean, I like to think that I’ve got a strong view and the right direction on how we ought to do things to make change, believing in myself so much that I still want to maintain that that direction, you know, in that decision. Otherwise, I’ve just sort of like, well, hang on. I created a business to not be beholden to certain people, and, you know, accountable to certain people. I created it for myself, for to help make change in the world. You know, any, any other type of stakeholder like that? No, does it threaten that? Does it change that? But then I also realized there’s a finite amount of bootstrapping you can do, you know, because if you’re we invest in profits that you’re making, you’ve got to, you’ve got to deliver the work that you’ve won to then, you know, and then, so actually, if you, if you just got a chunk of money that you could then focus on scaling and getting the right people and doing so, I

Natalie Desty 32:35
don’t know we, we did manage to. So we did get investment last year, organization that kind of was very like minded, shared our values, and we are allowed, you know, we continue to operate kind of as we are. But it’s nice to feel, I guess, that there’s a there’s another organization that believes in us, company called Intermarine. They believe in what we do, and they are there to support us. So that’s definitely given us so it we’re still kind of, um, growing quite organically. You know, we’re not bringing somebody in until we’ve got the work to support it, and that, that’s what I really struggled with before. It’s like we need someone. Well, we can’t afford it until this, until this level of works delivered. Yeah, we can’t deliver that level of work because we need somebody. And that was, that’s just constant, isn’t it? You know, it’s like, we’ve won something brilliant, but we’re not, you know, we can’t invest until x point, and you know, that impacts our being able to deliver. So, yeah, I think, you know, we’ve got that balance now good. It’s quite as it was, like the end of last year. So it’s quite a a new relationship. But, um, yeah, so far so good. It’s nice to feel it safer and almost like I love work, I love I love, you know, being an entrepreneur. But actually, it’s really nice to have someone to talk to. It can be really lonely.

Mark McBride-Wright 33:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Natalie Desty 34:00
yeah, yeah,

Mark McBride-Wright 34:02
totally, totally, yeah, yeah, I know, yeah. Well, that’s why I like maintaining a friendship with yourself and Alex Knight over it’s the amazing, yeah, you know, we’re all kind of tackling different bits of the talent chain, you know, and the connectivity points. So, and I always say that when I go to clients and they’re they’re developing a full life cycle strategy or something. And you know that might, what I always say to companies is that there are so many incredible organizations that own their niche that know it inside and out, but it really works when a client comes and then, I guess this is like the equivalent of investment. It’s like a larger scope of work or contract than one would readily get if we were working solely and directly with the company, but the company has the foresight to recognize. Companies, the sum of all the parts create a are greater than working individually, one by one. So they convene this sort of basically, I think some engineering companies should dig deep and CO invest in some projects, some long term pipeline projects that funds the amazing equal engineers and stem returners working together in the round. And then, you know, me, you and Alex, have already mapped this out, you know, like how role models on the STE amazing programs could be some of the stem returners. They could or they could go through some of the inspiration training that’s the amazing do, which could then help build the confidence of the returners. I just think so, yeah, any, any, any employers listening to this, you know, get in touch with with Natalie or I. And it’s, it’s how, I guess, yeah. I mean, the questions really to us as well, like, how do we go to market with a compelling offer? Or, I guess I say this from a position where I almost expect people to be joining these dots up and having this foresight, but maybe, maybe people in businesses are just so entrenched and in the thick of it in their own world that they they never get a chance to come up and think

Natalie Desty 36:25
broadly as well. It’s it’s just some of the sizes of the organizations they are. They are just so vast and so huge that even though I’ve worked with Babcock and BA Systems from the very start, and I still work with them now, but in reality, most people at Babcock or Bae have never even heard of us, you know, didn’t even know what we do. Don’t even know that we supply return is in into those organizations, you know. And you must find this if you you’ve got really good relationships with somebody at a company, and they leave, it’s like, oh my god, starting from scratch. You know, it takes you another 18 months to get back into the same company you worked with, you know, two months ago. So it’s just a scale, and I find, you know, it’s interesting. So I’m almost finding my my contacts are changing. You know, often, usually it’s like, it might be HR for us, or it might be Ed and I lead. And now, actually, it’s becoming social value that are getting involved in returner programs. So, yeah, we need to find that holistic person in organizations that almost brings the three, you know, three bits that we offer together.

Mark McBride-Wright 37:33
So definitely, the hot spot of the moment is absolutely social value. UK Procurement Act changing, requiring organizations to be doing more and doubling down on their commitments to Ed and I, it’s so strange coming back from living in the States for a year where organizations were like, you know, I mean, I was literally having to do a control find on documents to look for the word diversity or inclusion and make sure it’s not not in there

Natalie Desty 38:01
see that pullback almost, oh my God. Then, yeah,

Mark McBride-Wright 38:06
definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, like the or this nervousness around it, to now be coming back to, you know, clients present, and statistics on, on slides, or even this morning, I applied for like, like, a business accelerator program, you know. And it asked me, am I? Am I a women owned business, an ethnic minority owned business, or a disabled owned business, you know? And I was like, it’s so nice to see those questions in the application forms, because it means that, you know, positive action is still, is still alive and kicking. You said you want to diversify sectors. So what other sectors do you have in in mind? Think you said nuclear being one of them. Yeah.

Natalie Desty 38:58
So we’ve done quite a lot into nuclear. The reason I’m so involved or excited by nuclear is, of course, 40,000 skills needed by 2030 and it’s like, I’ve got 23,000 of those. Yeah, who could go into nuclear? So yeah, that that’s the real thing for nuclear. And I’d really like to diversify the opportunities for returners, because it’s been really successful in defense. So sort of our 600 odd, over 300 have been into UK defense, but that creates less opportunities. You know, often there’s security clearance requirements that it might be UK nationality required, and also they’re very engineering focused roles, because that is what companies are struggling to recruit. And they give me the roles that they’re struggling to recruit, of course, the easy ones they, you know, do through their other channels. So we get a lot of engineering roles, which is great because we’ve got a lot of engineering returners, but we’ve also got science returners and our tech returners. Again, huge, huge group of people. Tech is a really interesting one, because there’s this kind of even more bias, I guess, around somebody with a break or the industry moves so quickly, you know, how have they kept their skills up to speed? You know, if they use this new bit of software? And so there’s huge amount of tech returners, and less so opportunities. So, like our tech return is often going into engineering organizations. I’d like to deal with, you know, just tech companies and science. You know, there’s lots of returners into science and science, I haven’t really we, we’ve done a little bit of returners into science, particularly chemistry. So almost like physics, maths, chemistry, you know that that side of science, you know, I’ve never seen a biology returner, so some of the sciences then, yeah, yeah, biological, yeah. So to create, you know, opportunities for returners across stem because it’s, it’s really been picked up by engineering. And I think two key reasons for that, they’ve got a real diversity problem, as we know, and they’re struggling to recruit. So why would you know? Why would they not look at, you know, this, this, you know, big talent pool of people with the skills and experience.

Mark McBride-Wright 41:18
I mean, 23,000, people in your database, and you’ve, I mean, 620, is a big number, but as a percentage of 23 calculator to work out, but it’s like less than 1% isn’t it? Yes, it’s, it’s hmm. And do you have that broken down by, like, region and industry background, like where they had worked. And, you know, I’m just, I’m just, I’m just thinking, if is there a sort of mapping exercise to be done at sort of national level, looking at key projects that are coming through. You know, we’ve got the new infrastructure strategy, and I’m not up to speed yet with what the government’s called all these different reports and strategies. But, you know, skills England and priority sectors and, you know, I wonder,

Natalie Desty 42:10
I think we really need to kind of get on the front foot of it. Because, you know, if I think about my role, my role is to get the next program. So I’m, I’m always speaking to individual organizations? Do you know, would you run a program? And you know, pretty much every company we work with once goes on to work with us again, and we have a longer term relationship, but it’s almost like I’m so focused on the individual opportunities and individual organizations, I probably need to take a bit more of that helicopter view and think, right? But when you get that thing, isn’t it? You’re in that, you know, I’m the one who has to make sure, yeah, no, when to get the time. But I think that’s, that’s really what we need to focus that that’s, that’s the genuine opportunity to scale, isn’t it, to kind of answer some of those questions, because otherwise, I’m dealing with, you know, really fantastic big organizations, but one returner program at a time, and we are changing the industry, one returner at a time, and there’s, it’s

Mark McBride-Wright 43:07
too granular. It needs to be batch. It needs to be you need to be running like, you know, 10 returner programs a month, like getting launched, you know, around the country, and then have that sort of fail, your mentality that, if something doesn’t work out, why doesn’t it work out? And then, you know, apply those learnings to the to the next program that that launches. And yes, yes.

Natalie Desty 43:36
I mean, I need, then I need, I need some kind of business growth mentor, so if anyone’s listening and wants to give you great because it’s, it’s such, I think that’s the biggest The most difficult thing is that is scaling. That’s by far what I found the most difficult thing to do. Yeah.

Mark McBride-Wright 44:00
Yeah. I think I Yeah. I think you and I should meet more often, and then maybe be one another’s growth mentors as well. You know, before I was leaving to go to the US, we had a regionalization strategy for eco engineers, and we’d literally, we had a big map in our office. We’d sectioned up the country into different parts. And then the plan was to go after different regional skills groups, basically, and look at what the priority industries were per geography. Therefore, knowing that that’s who the dominant employers would be, where the most opportunities would be and then essentially task me and my team to work with networking with those those industries. And I always had my head that then an overlay on that would be your database, but your network with your. Distribution off, and then we could see the sort of color density, almost like a red, amber, green off, where you had the highest concentration, and return, there’d probably be some really interesting data that could be visualized that way with overlaying like the labor government’s industrial strategy, the priority sectors. In fact, I think a new tool has been released by the National Infrastructure Commission, or again, a new a new department that I whose name I can’t remember, but it has like all the the top infrastructure projects and there, and what we need linked to them is like the workforce, labor demands, the forecasts and where are their projected gaps. And then the obvious thing to be would be like, Okay, well, let’s now look at this database over here. Let’s see if Natalie and stem returners have any welders. Do you have any welders that live in you know,

Speaker 1 45:57
I know Suffolk. We’re

Mark McBride-Wright 45:59
about to build sizewell. B, Oh, great. Well, there’s a big lack of people over there, right? Let’s go and give X, Y and Z person a call and see if this organizational will take them. But it’s the, it’s the BD site that takes time and the and the time between initial call and then signing a contract to run a program. It’s just like, you know,

Natalie Desty 46:23
that has got so much longer. That’s what I’ve really not yet. The change in the market is what I’ve really noticed, that length of time the interest is, is absolutely there. Recruitment freezes, you know, kind of, I guess, a bit of a risk aversion to risk. Yeah. The the length of time to actually, you know, you get off a call, don’t you, and you’re like, yes, they got it. You know, they’re, they’re gonna do it six months later. And, you know, nine months later, you’re

Mark McBride-Wright 46:50
still chasing up, yeah, well, that person’s moved on as Yeah, ah, yes, okay, well, I’m back now. Maybe we can go to Costa and the chin, um, back to chin, um, back to chin. Um, right. Quick Fire questions. You ready? Okay, what’s the best piece of career advice you’ve ever received?

Natalie Desty 47:17
Oh, it’s gonna sound a bit cheesy, because it’s a book, but feel the fear and do it anyway. I always really held myself back with imposter syndrome. Probably still do, to be honest, but yeah, feel the fear and do it anyway. Say yes, even if it scares you, and work it out later. Is, is, I think what stopped me being stuck in that kind of, Should I do it? Should I not? And just think, yeah, like, give it a go. And it doesn’t always work out. That’s okay.

Mark McBride-Wright 47:50
What one returner success story that still gives you goose pump,

Natalie Desty 47:54
or my, yeah, my favorite returner story is a lady that was working she’d had a five year career break from she had, like, nuclear physicists, really, really niche skill set, and she was living in a Women’s Refuge at the time because she’d fled domestic abuse, and we she’d ended up with a five year, obviously unplanned career break, and we placed her at an organization. She did really well, and she was promoted again. And this was, this was one of our early ones. This was about 2018 and she phoned us recently to say, had to tell you, I’ve bought a flat on my own for the first time, you know, and it’s because you and that company gave me the chance, you know, five years ago. So yeah, honestly that when I’m having a down day, that’s what I remember. And we have those stories, you know, up and down at all of our returners. So it’s yeah, it matters,

Mark McBride-Wright 48:54
coffee, tea or a celebratory G and T.

Natalie Desty 49:00
Would I have a coffee, a tea or a celebrate? Always a celebratory G and T. If it’s, if it’s before 12, it will be a tea. And if, if I have the opportunity for a a coffee shop, it’ll be a latte. So that’s rubbish, isn’t it? All three,

Mark McBride-Wright 49:18
all three, all three, yeah. What’s one thing every inclusive leader should stop doing

Natalie Desty 49:27
recruiting in their own image, or just having that bias, like, you know, even, what’s the reason that somebody’s had a career break? What’s the relevance? Does it matter? You know, what is, is one thing more important than the other. But yeah, I’d say recruiting in your own image.

Mark McBride-Wright 49:45
What’s your personal power? Song or anthem before a big keynote or media appearance?

Natalie Desty 49:52
I love the way that you think I have big keynotes or media appearances. Lose Yourself. Eminem.

Mark McBride-Wright 50:02
Unto or method you swear by in your coaching or candidate prep. Sorry, one tool, one tool or method that you use when you’re preparing candidates.

Natalie Desty 50:13
And I mean, companies still use the STAR method a lot. So we do a lot around competencies and trying to show people that they have done tons of stuff on their career break and tons of competencies that are completely relevant for the workplace.

Speaker 1 50:29
Okay,

Mark McBride-Wright 50:30
who’s a change maker or role model in stem that you admire?

Natalie Desty 50:34
I mean, there’s lots, isn’t there? You? Alex, it’s amazing. I come across quite a lot of people, and this is why I love collaborating. Come across a lot of people who are genuinely doing something different, who who I really admire. So the lots, but I’m going to go with you too.

Mark McBride-Wright 50:57
Finally, what advice would you give to someone considering a return to work after a long career break.

Natalie Desty 51:04
Do it. Don’t second guess your suitability. You have all of the skills, all of the qualifications, you’ve done the role before. Industry want you back. They need you back. And you know, it is genuinely like riding a bike. You as soon as you it’s not about your skills and capabilities. It’s about the barriers that mean that you’re not getting seen, but your skills are wanted, so please return

Mark McBride-Wright 51:27
again. Well, then with that note, thank you so much. It’s been great. I’ve really enjoyed this chat. If people do want to get in touch, find out more about STEM returners, or reach out to you. How should they do that?

Natalie Desty 51:41
I’m on LinkedIn, so please connect with me. Obviously, the stem returners website. So all of the current opportunities are on there as well. So if you are looking to return that’s worth a look, but yeah, LinkedIn or the website, be really good to hear from you.

Mark McBride-Wright 51:55
Wonderful. We’ll put a link in the show notes as well. Thank you. Thank you so much Natalie, it’s been a pleasure.

Natalie Desty 52:02
Yeah, me too. Thanks for having me. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai