E033: Finding Your North Star and Helping People Thrive

Mark McBride-Wright 0:00
Mark, hello. Welcome to the next episode of the safe leader podcast. I’m your host, Mark McBride-Wright, and I’m delighted to be joined by Francie Jane who is the founder and CEO of terrawatt, a platform that helps healthcare organizations reduce employee turnover by scaling psychological safety and professional development through group coaching with a background in finance, capital, strategy and entrepreneurship, Francie brings a systems level perspective to solving one of Healthcare’s biggest challenges, retaining and empowering frontline talent. Before launching terawatt, Francie founded next chapter, a re entry support community for stay at home, parents, veterans and manufacturing workers and previously held senior leadership roles at Lazard Fortress Investment Group and light street capital. Her unique path from Wall Street to wellness gives her a rare lens into how inclusion, culture and leadership intersect with financial performance. Through Terra watt, she’s pioneering a scalable, human centered approach to wellbeing and retention in the most demanding work environments. Francie believes that when people are supported to thrive, organizations thrive too. Francie, welcome to the podcast.

Francie Jain 1:11
Thank you, Mark. I’m delighted to be here. What a beautiful introduction. Thank you. That was so lovely.

Mark McBride-Wright 1:16
Well, you’ve got an incredible arc to your professional experience, and I’m there’s so many things there that I want to dig into and turn over and get your perspective on and understanding what led you to do what you did there, and mainly because there’s similarities to work I’ve done Back in the United Kingdom. So yeah, really interested to get into that. But before we go there, let’s go back and find out a bit about the young Francie. Are you doing today? What you thought you would be doing back then tell us a bit about your younger self and who you wanted to be, what you wanted to become. Yeah,

Francie Jain 2:02
that’s always such a funny question, because the best is when you ask kids what they want to do when they grow up, and then you remember that, you know, for like 20, 3040, years later, I remember very distinctly telling people I either wanted to be a jockey, you know, horse jockey, a beautician. Okay, those are my two ones. And that was really just because I, like, probably didn’t know how to put on makeup, and I thought that was interesting to learn. And then I liked horseback riding. I didn’t realize there was a career besides being a jockey, yeah, well, on a racehorse, which is one of the most dangerous careers you could probably have. So I’m really glad to not do that.

Mark McBride-Wright 2:43
You know, working with horses. I did a podcast once where I was a guest. It was called the new masculine help podcast by Travis stock. Travis stock and his his work is all about equine, you know, sort of doing work with horses to also then connect with your inner, inner self and what have you. There’s like an effect that horses have on people, where they bring out things and people I don’t know. I haven’t actually done that. I just did the podcast, but for people that have a love of horses, I can, I can see that being being something, I guess it’s like any sort of pet that you might have, you know, yeah, assistance pet or an emotional support animal.

Francie Jain 3:33
I know it’s funny is, I think the reason people respond is because they don’t speak. It’s like the same as dogs and cats, like you kind of have to be and you have to sort of like, imagine what they’re saying and not be kind of like, shut up. You know, they’re not actually saying anything to you. They actually drive you crazy. They’re just sort of like,

Mark McBride-Wright 3:53
so you you ruled out that you didn’t want to be a beautician or a jockey or somewhere on your ears as life evolved, you realized they weren’t pathways you were going to go down. So tell us a bit about what you did end up doing that’s brought you to where you’re at now,

Francie Jain 4:11
I’ll tell you. You know, I’ve always had so much trouble figuring out professional stuff, because I always had this, like, I think I’ve always had really competition between, like, the intellectual and like the heart, right? And, you know, I always would come up with, like, when I came out of college, when I came out of college, I was thinking, Oh, I really want to do like, the business of art, so either work in a gallery or work in fashion. And it was actually too bad. It’s actually really too bad I didn’t do the gallery route, because that’s something I still actually really love, is like art and being around art and speaking artists and stuff. But I was afraid of the sales side,

Mark McBride-Wright 4:57
right? But trying to sell PC. Reason, yeah, yeah.

Francie Jain 5:01
It turns out, like, that’s like a strength of mine is relationship building. And it just like, I don’t know. Like, I didn’t, I wasn’t knowledgeable enough about and I didn’t, you know, I don’t know everyone in my life was like a doctor, not even a doctor, like lawyers, and you know what I mean, through business people. So there wasn’t more, like executives, I guess, but there wasn’t really a sense of, like, what is sales? I didn’t really even understand it, so it seemed very scary, but I ended but I ended up going and working in fashion and but I didn’t understand also like that it was worthwhile to spend more time just thinking about the culture of a place, as opposed to just like getting a job and doing thinking that that would be good for me. I mean, the reason that all came up is because in college, I was really, my major was political science, but I had, like, a minor in visual arts, and so I, and those were, like, my happiest semesters, is when I had each of those classes. And I thought, okay, that will be great. And that, you know, this is like the story of my life, like me coming up with some idea that seems like a great solution, and then it like gets met with reality. And there’s, you know, there’s, it doesn’t work the way my brain tells me it should work. So there’s just a lot of that in my life. But so, you know, and then I and then part of the other, like trend in my life is that, because, I guess I’m, I don’t know, so intellectually imaginative about jobs. I also have switched careers many times, okay, and that doesn’t scare me, and that’s sort of how that got me to where I am now, ultimately, is I realized that the ability to, sort of like, you know, optimistically change jobs and figure out a path and figure out careers was kind of a superpower, and not everyone has that. And for a lot of people, it’s very scary, yes, and that’s like, shocking to me, because, like, it’s really just not that hard, you know, you just, like, talk to a lot of people. And I guess again, my other superpower is, like, making relationships, like, right? And so that makes sense. All that makes sense, but it’s so funny. And so that was kind of how next chapter came about, is that I was really realizing that, you know, maybe one of the problems we’re having in the world with, like xenophobia or just anger generally, is like fear. You know, maybe people are just afraid. They’re not happy where they are. They don’t know how to get out, they don’t know how to do what they want. There’s not a lot of support. And so that was sort of the epiphany that kind of got me looking into this and saying, like, you know, that’s just not right. Like, if we believe we’re all capital and we all live in a capitalist society, and I believe in capitalism, I went to University of Chicago, which is, like, you know, we worship at the altar of numbers and data and but you know, you I still, like, have a heart, you know, and I want I do like, there’s nothing better than spending time with someone who loves what they do like, or loves their family or loves their dog. That feeling like is a wonderful thing to be

Mark McBride-Wright 7:58
around. They shouldn’t have to be in conflict with one another. Like your statement there reminds me of the model from Erin weed, who is the founder of the dig, and it was a transformative process that I did personally, that really made me learn more about myself. And her model is about the head, the heart and the core. Like your gut, what’s your gut telling you, and sometimes you can be getting different signals from each of these, each of these sources, you know the concept of, like, almost intuitive coaching, like going with your gut, like what you feel, and whenever there’s a lack of alignment between them, can be when we might feel ill At ease or slightly stressed or unsure about a direction that we that we want to go in. And as humans, we we don’t like that often. We don’t we don’t like not feeling like we’re structured and ordered. And so I’m interested in finding out more about next chapter specifically, and you listed the communities that you worked with there as stay at home, parents, veterans, manufacturing workers. So I’m guessing that’s people who were on the shop floor, on the production lines. And yeah, tell tell us more about because, because I’m an engineer, by background and the safe leaders all about high hazard industries and trying, and I run an organization in the UK about helping get underrepresented groups into the engineering profession so these communities, as well as broader diversity communities, like more Women, more LGBTQ, more black people, etc, into the industry, is what I’ve spent a portion of my time trying to enable. So when I saw that, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve run an organization that’s tapped into similar mindsets, um, yeah, I’d love to hear more about the next chapter journey,

Francie Jain 9:56
yeah, yeah. So that also really, so again, like. Not surprisingly, like, I’m just so driven by, like, relationships and stuff, and developing relationships, keeping relationships. So I it was so random, but I was watching a US presidential debate between like, Clinton, Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump, and there was a kerfuffle about, you know, I’ve done more for the manufacturing workers who’ve lost their jobs. And someone throughout a number like 5 million or 10 million workers have lost their jobs since 2000 and I was like, hold on a minute. I know that is a lot of people. And is that true? Is that a real number? And so that I took a bunch of time, just like pausing just to try to research just how many people in America are losing manufacturing jobs and and why, and, you know, all those different things. And so, like, what I found is, and actually, just recently, I found another chart. So here’s the here’s the actual answer, the peak of US manufacturing was a 1940s right? And since then, it’s been coming down, like, almost, like 45 degrees, right, right, right? So you can look at, really, any time series, and there’s gonna be a lot of people who’ve lost their jobs. And so, you know, what I was thinking about was this, like, you know, like, lead up just the fifth past 1510, years. And, wow, that’s a lot of people and, and there have been a lot of news at the time about, you know, let’s say there’s, like, a manufacturer in the States called carrier, and they make air conditioners, and probably me, maybe heating also. But they say they’re gonna, like, they’re talking about having their manufacturing plant moved to Mexico. And it was a big to do in the news, and everyone was talking about it, and I was thinking through the logistics. And if you and it was in the middle of like Indiana, which is, you know, there’s one big city there, Indianapolis, but otherwise there’s a lot of small towns. So that production facility was going to leave, then you have 1000s of people, I would assume

Mark McBride-Wright 12:06
work, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. Where would they go? What would they do?

Francie Jain 12:10
Yeah. And then, like, if you then think about, well, most of you know, people are buying more, like the Korean or other, like foreign made air conditioning units because they’re more affordable. Well, then where do those people work? Like with that specific knowledge? Where do they go? And then I was thinking, Okay, well, if you are a manufacturing worker, you probably haven’t gone to college. You know, university, at universities, they have career services so they help you in let’s say you’ve been laid off, or maybe you’re trying to find a job, but if you’ve just completed high school, I don’t know of any high school that has Career

Mark McBride-Wright 12:50
Services for alumni, either Right, exactly

Francie Jain 12:53
and not even right, not even current Exactly. Like, 20 years ago you graduated from there, they’re like, not helping you. Yeah. So then I was thinking, like, wow, so there’s really not much out there. And I thought, Oh, well, you know what? Actually, I bet. I was like, I bet there’s like, a Yahoo for career change or something. So I was thinking like, you know, I bet this is really scary, because, like, who’s helping these people? And I was looking into like, I think there is an industry, and I still can’t really find it, but of organizations, when there’s a mass layoff. I think they help people. There’s something in there, but it’s very hard to find. It’s like, you have to know the right words and stuff. But I was thinking, like, there must be, like, a Yahoo of career change, like, who’s like, doing the cheap thing where it helps people, and it’s just like, it may not be great, but it’s good enough, good enough basic and, yeah, it’s like, inexpensive or free or whatever. And I couldn’t find that. I just was like, This is crazy. Is crazy, because usually when I have those ideas, there’ll be 1000 or 10,000 of these websites. And I was like, that’s crazy. Like, how am I the only person to have this question? And and then I started getting really obsessed with it, and I wrote an email to my cousin, who’s like an ed tech entrepreneur, and he said, Well, let’s talk about and let’s see if you can, you know, make a business out of it. Or he’d also gone to business school, so everything was like a business. You know, we all were like, make a business. And so what I realized is, as I was doing that, I was thinking, Okay, well, it would have to, well, the number one thing was, well, the number one goal was truly helping people find, like, the joy in their heart and like, the perfect job for them. Like, that’s like, the whole goal, and so we weren’t going to make money on their backs, meaning, like, I didn’t want it to be like, you know, advertising, where they’re the product, or I didn’t want it to be like a headhunter where we’re actually working for the employer, or a conference, where we’re just making money out of getting people in the door, you know, all those things I wanted to just really be about helping the people, like, find the next best, the next great thing for them, and like, what really fits. And so my idea was, like, it’d be a community, and be like, Kumbaya, and. And we, like, help each other out and

Mark McBride-Wright 15:02
your support type, yeah, yeah, right. And, like,

Francie Jain 15:05
the one thing I kept wanting to do, and this is how it evolved into, into Terra, but what I really wanted to do was have, like, personal assessments where, you know, you could take either these kind of basic ones, and they would tell you, like, five careers that might be good for you, or like a Myers Briggs or more sort of intellectual ones. When I was in business school, I took a Myers Briggs test, which is like a personality assessment, and then give you the four letters. And that was the first time I’d ever had anything like that. And it was like a huge light bulb moment, because the first three were kind of negligible. I was like, a little bit of a feeler. But actually, the funny part about that was that what happened in business school, right? And because I was at University of Chicago, which is all like, numbers, people like, I went there to become, like, good at numbers. And and they were all like, Oh, you’re the only feeler in the room. Come speak to us about what that’s like. And it was hysterical. And everyone’s like, what are you these decisions you’re making are crazy. And I’m like, Well, you know, that’s, that’s my I’m a feeler. But that was, it was, like, small, but the big surprise to me was that I was an Off The Charts extrovert, right? Either be an introvert or an extrovert, flexible, but I was like, it was a completely inflexible it was 100% extrovert. And apparently I’d answered every question with the extrovert right trait, yeah. And that was shocking to me, because I’m not a person who, like, rolls into parties or into stores full of people I don’t know, like shake people’s hands and introduce myself and start chatting with people. I can be very shy, you know, many times and so. But really, what it meant was that to what I had, my interpretation, was that I really cared about relationships. Yes, you know, I relationships drove me to give you

Mark McBride-Wright 16:58
energy. And

Francie Jain 17:00
it’s like, or like, one of the things was, I think what I really realized then, too, is it’s just so important for me to have a good relationship and really love whoever my boss is or the people I work with. Like, that was, that was like, a big epiphany too, like, oh, wow, if I had a someone I could work with I really loved. And I feel like I feel like I was learning. I would do any job, yeah, yeah. And that was, that was a huge pine because here I had been before saying, well, I need to do this, and do this. And was this intellectual, like, you know, creation. And so that was really helpful. And so I thought, wow, well, what if we give everyone that, you know, there’s some way to make it affordable where they can have these kinds of assessments, and then that will help them, like, shine a light bulb into like who they are and what would be good way to go forward, and and so and so I was sort of investigating different kinds of incest assessments and figuring out how to make it work. And I was getting really bogged down by just the content of it and having to start from scratch, yeah, and, and I, and I was like, God, this is so hard. And by the way, like, I’m not like, any kind of, like, coaching influencer. I’m just the person thinks is a good idea. And so, so, so just add one more thing. So the manufacturing workers were just from this idea. That’s how it all got started. And then I was thinking, who are other groups that are also in career transitions or at forks in the road? And can I quantify those? And so one was people decommissioning from the military. And so in America, it’s very easy to find this number. Every year, 250,000 people leave the US military and become civilians. And I remember also driving around and hearing President Obama saying on the radio, you know, hire our vets. They’re very well trained. And I remember thinking, what is happening? Like, why is the President talking about hiring vets and and I think it’s because you have these people that it’s a big group of people that are coming out into the workforce, and people are having trouble figuring out what they were their skills fit in Absolutely. Don’t you know what I mean and like, and there must have been some, some like unemployment problems with that, that population. And so at that time, when I heard those ads, and then the other one is because I’m a woman, and I had a kid, and she was in preschool, I always had one leg in with the stay at home moms and one leg game with the working moms. Yeah, and, you know, the one point like, all these stay at home moms were like, sidling up to me and saying, Hey, Francie, you know, I’m thinking going back to work, and I was like, what is in the water? Like, what is happening, you know? Why is this? And then I did all this research. And so a there’s like, a psychological component, I think, which is that, like, as women, have more time if you’re a stay at home mom and you’re staying home with your kids. Kids. Once your kids are at full time school, you have a lot more structure to their lives and your life, but also ability to like, think about yourself and like what I want to do. And then the numbers were really interesting. I found these great numbers from actually, it was like the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics and you do a little bit of math, but basically it showed that every year, 4 million American women go back to work full time and part time when their youngest kid enters full time school. So some places that’s kindergarten, some places that’s first grade, but meaning to like, 3pm or 4pm whatever the thing is. And I was like, wow, that’s a crazy number. No one’s talking about that. And it made sense to me, just anecdotally, because

Mark McBride-Wright 20:51
I was seeing that, yeah, you were in that pool, you were around these Yeah.

Francie Jain 20:56
And it was like, we were like, it was made so much sense, because the kids are trying to go to school, and the moms are starting to realize, like, wow, like, I could I have a lot of time now, like, it’s not like I run out and do an errand and the kids at school, like, I have like, hours and hours and hours and and so actually even called the Bureau of Labor Statistics to say, like, is this, am I doing the math right? Is this what the numbers are really saying? And they called me, yeah, and they called me back. It was so cute, yeah. They called me back, and they’re like, yeah, yeah, you’re right. And I said, Well, is there any more data on that? And I said, No, that’s really all we have. And I said, you have anything more, like, anything more I can go on. And they said, Oh, well, the one thing I can say is we think it’s related to childcare. And I said, Well, okay, thanks. I knew that, but, but yeah, so it’s related to childcare, so at least the government is telling us that. But I you know, that. But I you know, basically that’s cheaper. It’s depending on how much a person makes. Yes, you’re better off just staying home for those years, yes, then getting childcare and figuring out the logistics of that and but then again, as a feeler, I would say, Well, if you love your job, it’s worth it, because you’re reserving your place in the workforce, the coming in and out is probably, anyway that’s, that’s a whole other thing. But, um, so those are the three groups. And I was like, and it wasn’t really taking off, but I had this, like, great website, and I was so, like, into it. Like, I was really, like, so compelled and like, like, just could not stop thinking about it. And I thought, well, you know what these people really need? As again, like, as I was speaking with these moms, I was like, but they really use a coach, because I don’t know the content, like, I can’t really help them. And for a moment, I thought, Well, should I become a coach? Maybe that’s the answer. And then I thought, no, no, I don’t. I don’t want to be a coach. I want to just build the scaffolding next. I want to do it like in mass, like, and like in scale and, and so I thought, okay, fine, so that’s the answer. And so I reached out to a coach I knew, and I said, Listen, like, what if we got like, 10 moms, and this is, like, 2017 18. It was before it was part of the pandemic and, and people are using zoom, but not like aggressively. And I said to the coach, well, listen, what if we got, like, 10 stay at home moms and they could just, you could have something at night, like kids would be in bed or whatever, like they wouldn’t have to go anywhere, no, no babysitting, and like, they would split your rate. You tell me your rate, you know, so they pay 110 and you don’t have to find customers. And, you know, it’s like an I’m helping you with customers. And the woman I mentioned to said, Oh, I would do that in a heartbeat. Yeah. And I was, I was like, Oh, my God, epiphany. Like, I forget. Like, coaches need leads. Like, coaches customers too. Yeah. And then I thought, Oh, this whole thing can just be a marketplace where I connect coaches to people, and I make it affordable, and then, like we coaches just tell me what they want to get paid, as opposed to me telling them what. And it’s funny, because that’s what most coaching companies are, is there, it’s mostly one on one, and they pay the coaches as little as possible, so that it seems more affordable to the buyer. Or there’s a coaching company where they have their own content, and again, they just pay people to train, like, to just deliver it, and they pay them as little as possible, and they make the spread. And so apparently my thing was, like, very different in that I’m like, Yeah, Airbnb. So I would Yeah. And so that’s always, always say to people, it’s like, Airbnb because, you know, they the coaches tell me what their rate is, and then the buyer can decide if that’s if they want to pay for their expertise or not. And everyone has a choice. And again, that’s another thing I learned, like as a parent of a toddler. Turns out, like humans like choices. It turns out life’s a lot easier with toddlers when you give them a choice. And, and it’s true for adults too. And, and so anyway, that’s how it all started. And, and so the sad little bit, the sad part about it, is that. But we’re now B to B, because that’s who has the budget for professional development. But, you know, like one day, like, I’m very ambitious for this company, and like one day, I do want to get back to like individuals. And we can probably do groups of individuals, like, for, you know, like it could be, you know, newly invented civilians, you know, or manufacturing workers across America, or whatever, right where we’re all, they’re all some kind of cohort where they’re working

Mark McBride-Wright 25:28
on but those numbers haven’t changed. Or how have those? No, they haven’t. New administration and the new strategy of, I mean, it’s too early still to know what impact bringing manufacturing back to America is going to have. But do you, I mean, you, yeah. I mean, maybe a market will be opening up for you to, like, Help, um, help scaffold the the skills in in the America. Great

Francie Jain 25:53
idea. Yeah, I love that. And that’s, that’s the whole thing with this business is, like, I there’s so many ways it can go, right, because it can be training, it can be coaching, it can be any kind of skill, right? And so there’s so many ways you can do it and and that’s what I love about it, is that really it has so many different iterations.

Mark McBride-Wright 26:17
So are you? So when you say your B to B, now are you, you’re going directly to companies working with companies to help do group coaching, or one to one coaching for their for their employees.

Francie Jain 26:28
Is that? Yeah, so the sort of like, what I want to be doing is really just bringing affordable expertise to employers, to their employees, and so what I always say is it’s like helping the sophisticated middle so that these are people that really don’t have much professional development. Maybe they’re being there. Have a budget for conferences, but conferences pretty much are sitting on your butt and listen people talk on a stage. They’re very not, they’re not very interactive, and they’re not that interested in the ROI for the buyer. They are interested, like I said, I’m just getting people in the door, and you see that and and, like, I’ve done conferences so many different ways, like we got a booth one place. We’ve spoken on panels, and I try to make as interactive as possible, but I often do wonder, like, is that just because there’s nothing else? Yeah, yeah. Is that where people are going? But anyway, so let’s just say those people, this middle group, has a budget for a conference. It’s probably somewhere between $2,000 to $10,000 a year for that money per person. Like, if you took money from those 10, let’s say 10 people like that, you could get an incredible coach for six months of group coaching, and you could come up with things that you want to tackle, like, you know, negotiation, psychological safety, being a better manager, becoming a manager, you know, I mean, you could do anything. Because one of the things that I learned from all these coaches, we have almost like 100 and in the end, it’s really about the human brain. Yeah, it’s not so much about the specialty what the person does. It’s about how to like, connect to other humans, and how to learn how to have behavior that elicits the best from others and creates connections and and helps people, sort of like, solve for the North Star, not like the ego, and that’s just and, like, you can take that, and that’s basically what everyone’s talking about, but they’re all have really different ways to, like, do it, yeah, yeah. And that’s what’s so cool,

Mark McBride-Wright 28:51
so is that that’s what you’ve built with terawatt is almost like a coaching marketplace where the coaches can put up their rates, as you say, their special out specialities, their expertise. And then is it the employers that have the budget for X number of employees that will then book a number of slots, or they’ll devolve out the choice opportunity to their employees to then come onto the platform and then choose a coaching program or something.

Francie Jain 29:25
Yeah. So the one thing that’s tricky about Terra watt is that, because it’s it’s like, we’re selling services, yes, and we’re a marketplace, it’s a little bit hard for people to, like, wrap their arms around but what I like to do is talk to an employer. It’s usually like an L and D person, or speaking to one library. It’s like the head of the library. It can be any kind of person who’s sort of like in charge of some sort of budget, and say, Okay, well, what problem are you looking to attack? Like, what are you trying to solve for? What are you trying to improve? And because, ultimately, we’re not saying like, throw coaching in there and make your life better, you know, gross national happiness. We’re saying like, how can we come up with things? And then we can measure Yes, and then see how it worked, and have the feedback and know that, like, Okay, we want to make it better, or do we want to stop? Or, like, did it work? Is it good enough? Could it go, you know, could we try to get could we expand that, you know, I have, like, what happens after the experiment, you know, like, it’s an experiment, and then, like, how do we

Mark McBride-Wright 30:28
a tailored solution per prospect, per account that you’re working with, where there’ll be some, as you say, service selling, so you’re tailoring, and then the group coaching programs might be part of the solution, or they might not. And there might be some other ideas that you, that you come up with and and it’s the idea or the ambition, then to get to circle back and tap into, you know, those three groups you had originally, the stay at home, parents, the veterans, the manufacturing workers.

Francie Jain 31:04
Yeah, yeah, in fact. And really, like, even now, if someone came to me and said, Listen, we’ve got a group of 10 people we’d like to talk to, I would do in a heartbeat. It’s more just the marketing of it, yeah? So, you know, one thing that’s funny about these startups, that it’s something I like learned recently in the past few years, is, like, you almost have to pick a kind of, like a niche, yes. And because I was saying, oh, because we were getting clients just from kind of word of mouth and and somewhat casually, and people are saying, well, who are your clients? And I would say, Oh, just like knowledge workers, but really for like them, if we’re gonna, like, go after people and sell to them, we have to be a lot more specific, because that’s like, the whole world, not, you know what I mean, it’s not the whole world, it’s a lot of people, yeah. And so initially I was like, well, maybe tech, but then here’s the thing, like, yes, we have a lot of clients who are tech, but that’s a very competitive like marketplace and so what I figured so we had a one client who was a hospital, and we had this incredible experience with them, and realized that here you have very educated People, yes, have incredible expertise. Their organization manages to metrics. They measure everything, they care about everything, and they have had zero management training, yeah, zero personal assessments. And so what I keep thinking is, wow, this is such a we can really help them. It’s a huge opportunity for us. It’s a huge opportunity for them, and it’s like the perfect client, because we can really, we there all these metrics they’re already measuring. Yeah, we can just see, you know, how it changes after six months. Or maybe we can compare two teams, because you might have like an or like Orthopedic Group versus like the neuro group, or whatever. I mean, you’d have these like distinct groups that you can compare as, like, a baseline survey, so, like, one group could get coaching, training, whatever the other group could not, and then you start to compare, like, what’s happening with, like, you know, voluntary turnover, people quitting, or what’s happening with sick days, or, you know, all sorts of things, promotions, all sorts of stuff, and or even on the operational level, like, maybe you can talk about, like, even infections of their patients, like, can you compare that, like, things like that, and and so the more I sort of thought about I have, like, you know, I don’t really have a background, and, I mean, I have a zero background in medicine, but it just feels like we can really help these organizations. And it also includes like, let’s say pharma, or, like, home health care, senior living. And it’s kind of a big work, big it’s several verticals, ultimately, but I think it’s really this idea of, I call it like people have, like, the engineering brain. That’s like the science brain. There’s like, a right way and a wrong way to do it. The problem is with humans, it’s much more gray area, yeah. And those skills, those muscles, haven’t really been developed. And like, for instance, when we did this one thing with this hospital, we gave them a personal, you know, a personality survey called independent leadership skills, I think, is ILS and it like blew their minds,

Mark McBride-Wright 34:19
right? They had because they’d never done it before, ever done it. And

Francie Jain 34:23
then the coach who ran it was so clever, she like, separated people into groups of, like, the four or five, whatever the different groups are, so they could talk about what they had in common. And then, like, they like, presented to other people and who were, like, happy, and they’re like, laughing and smiling. And I think that they were started to realize, like, Oh, this is why I have trouble, really into this person to do what I want them to do, or whatever. And and then by the end, they were saying how, you know, like, on the key cards, they were going to put their, like, their descriptor on it, so people knew how to tell them what they needed to make a decision. Yeah. And it was like, so cool. And so I just was realizing, like, wow. Like, you know, when I had in business school, really should be taught in all colleges, high schools, graduate school. So you just have a more sense of like yourself. And then when you know yourself a little bit better, you’re just a little bit more self aware of how people are different. Yeah, to be a little bit more flexible about how you can, like, bridge the gap and and I have not have anger or stuff

Mark McBride-Wright 35:22
I always find with these tools, because I’ve done a few as well. And I did the Myers, Briggs, and I was on es, TJ, oh, and I was similar experience, actually, full on extrovert. You know, the teacher even got us to line up and order off our scores on that ei domain. And I was one side, and my colleague, who was the other graduate that had been employed in the team that I worked in, he was the other side of introvert, like we were literally the bookends of the 20 people in the training course, it was so funny to see, but they and we did another I can’t remember what it was called, but it was basically a red, green, blue triangle, and you had to answer two surveys, and One gave you your motive MVS, your motivational value score, and another one gave you your stress based value score. And you know, so when you had one point on the triangular graph for when you’re motivated and one point for when you’re stressed, and obviously the red zone has a cluster of behaviors and traits. The Green Zone similar, and the blue zone similar, and the length of the line, like you can does your behavior change basically from when you’re motivated to when you’re stressed? And for some people, it does, but interestingly, for some people it doesn’t. So as a manager, you might not be able. For some employees, it’s really obvious if you can tell if they are stressed or motivated, because their behavior changes and they go to more to one of these extremes, or they come more to the hub, the middle point. So cool. Yes, for some people, the size of the line doesn’t actually move that much. So as a leader, you kind of need to know who in your team has a large change in their in their behavior, from when they’re motivated and when they’re stressed and who doesn’t, and then the people who don’t, you kind of need to keep more of an eye on, or be more tuned into. And so so that, that that was, that was a really interesting learning point. And so I love doing these, these types of assessments. But as I’ve done more and more work in diversity, and especially like neurodiversity, I’ve come up across a lot of people that are quite anti these tools and these assessments. And, you know, they make it seem like you can they’re, they’re putting us in boxes, right, you know? And then they’re, they’re making you think, well, you are an extrovert, therefore you can never be introverted. It drives this kind of box boundary thinking, you know, so it’s just interested to understand your perspective on that if you come up, come up, that or that’s

Francie Jain 38:17
so funny. Yeah, that is funny. Because so in that training, that the hospital training, there was one person who was very vocal and like, did not like being boxed, yes. And which is funny, is that a lot of what the coach was later, we’re talking one of the coaches who gave that assessment, and she was saying, Well, what I was really trying to tell them was, it wasn’t a boxing it was about flexibility and flexing. And these are, these are your innate strengths. That doesn’t mean you can’t be anything else. It just means what you go to that you’re like your default, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and so that was so interesting, too. And I, you know, listen like, I do find that with every assessment, there’s going to be like, at least one person who finds fault with it. You know, I always am tickled by the reaction that people have to when I say about Myers Briggs. Because, you know, a lot of even like one, one of my favorite, not favorite coaches, but one of my coaches who does this super cool assessment on our platform. He’s like, all Myers Briggs is not scientifically sound blah, blah, blah, and he hates it. But I was like, you know, for me, it was helpful, you know. And I think that I do think it’s a little bit of a vulnerability thing for some people, just, they just don’t like being told anything, you know, maybe, maybe it feels, they feel vulnerable. I don’t

Mark McBride-Wright 39:36
know. I agree with you. It’s, I think they’re useful to serve a purpose, to realize things. And I certainly have taken benefit from we did. I did. I’ve never done the disc training the blue. I’ve never, I’ve never done this. I’ve done an older one, Belbin or something. I did that as a student. So they did that. That for us to help construct our design projects, our design teams for our final year project, they got us to do an assessments, and then they created diverse teams based on how people had scored across, you know, whatever the framework is that that is, I can’t, I can’t remember the framework. And then I’ve seen people talk more and more recently about Clifton Strengths, you know, all the all the top 10 descriptors, which I think you can do for free on one of their websites, and you get your top three words, and you have to pay for more analysis and deeper dives. Yeah, yeah. I think, I think they’re fun, though. I but I do. I know that there are some people that are quite, you know, don’t, don’t like what they show, and that can sort of sway you from even doing them, if you’re a small team, you know,

Francie Jain 40:55
yeah, it’s funny. I wish I knew psychologically, why that is. I don’t really know my I just, my assumption is just that it, maybe it doesn’t give you the choice that you think you have, you know, the you have in life. But I think the real point is, like, it’s not, it’s really just about, you know, being successful in life and at work. You know, it’s really just about deciding what you’re solving for and having the ability to, like, have that perspective. So a lot of people are just very reactionary, right? So if you’re able to get out of that reactionary state, you’re operating at a much better level to determine the future of your

Mark McBride-Wright 41:34
life. I so actually, I remember it was a that triangle tool. I remember in real time applying the learning from it when I was then in a subsequent project for the Metropolitan Police in London, I was working on like an energy management system tool, and I was working with a contractor, and we just weren’t quite connecting with one another. There was sort of tension there. And, you know, it was also a newer, new I was newish to the project. So with this individual, I was still in that forming, storming phase of, you know, relationship development. And then I thought, and I remember a particular phone call where it got a bit spiky, you know, in terms of the exchange. And then I was real. I realized, Mark, you’re heading into the red zone. You are becoming more fiery, more like aggressive, more, you know, because you’re entering the stressed state of your triangle. Try and be more in the hub. Pull on your green, pull on your blue kinda side, you know, your empathy, your your listening, your being grounded. And I just took a breath, took a moment, realized that I was responding physiologically to this, and adjusted, and I was able to, we were able to unlock, you know, and I think they’re really, I think if, as long as they’re contained as as like, use or maybe that’s a useful example, a useful use case of the benefits of doing them, yeah, then, you know, they’re not things that are going to, like, transform our life. And like, I mean, for some they might, but, you know, I think we can expect too much of them sometimes. And, yeah, not

Francie Jain 43:28
everyone can have an epiphany 100% but I think, you know, in this presentation I gave, I was saying, like, you know, that’s, I think, even saying to somebody, can we start again? Yeah, yeah. Gives everyone the ability to, like, okay, refresh. That’s not the way I meant to do it, you know. Or you can also start by saying, listen, like, I know we both want to get to this result of x, like, let’s, I’m trying, I’m trying to get there with you. I just maybe I’m doing it the wrong way. Or, you know, whatever, just explaining what’s in your brain as a as opposed to like, trying to give someone to like, the perfect way of saying it, you know, it’s more like the process and the result. I

Mark McBride-Wright 44:08
love it. I love it. I think, I think what you’re doing is great. And I think, you know, if you can make coaching more accessible to more people at an affordable price point, that also works for the coaching community, who are being able to, you know, work to the fees that they want to have, I think you could be onto something definitely. Yeah,

Francie Jain 44:28
exactly. That’s why I’m so excited about this. And, like, it’s just, it’s become for me, like it’s almost something to joke, but it’s a little more like having a child, like I just doing the best I can to help it grow and get better. And it’s, it’s a really fun problem always, because there’s always some problem, like, you know, once I find some solution or something that’s working, then there’s, like, the next thing that you had and but because I’m, like, so connected to the North Star of the company, right? Which is, like, making it easier for people to, kind of, like, be great. Making it easier for them to have a great job, like I love and I’m obsessed with that idea that it’s just so easy to work on this like I you know, so we’re not, yeah, I don’t go crazy. But, I mean, I love it, like every day,

Mark McBride-Wright 45:13
I can feel it. I can sense it from you. It’s amazing. It’s beautiful to see like it emanates from you, the energy, the positivity that you like, it’s coming from your heart, and you’ve got that alignment then between your head, heart and core, you know your gut, you’re doing something that adds good into the world, and it makes you then feel good about it. And you get that positive feedback loop when then the coaches and the coachees, the beneficiaries of it. And it’s just a beautiful value creation where everyone,

Francie Jain 45:46
exactly, and that’s to me, like, also, like, that’s such a, like, a life force for me, which is, like, you know, the threading of the needle, yeah, it makes me so happy. And so, like, one of the things I always say about terawatt is, like, all our three stakeholders, coaches, employers and employees are all treated the same way, like they’re all treated with respect. No one’s disadvantaged. We have one website, you know? I mean, we’re super transparent about the costs and everything, and, and. And my belief is, like, if you have a company like that, and you treat people well, and you’re transparent, and you know, you do all the things that you know in your heart you should do. I do also believe you can have a great company. So

Mark McBride-Wright 46:28
where, how, what? Where are you currently mainly operating? Is it a specific area in the US? Is it national? Is there ambitions to go international? Like, what’s the what’s the current state and future state?

Francie Jain 46:41
Yeah, yeah. Well, we have coaches all over. So we have coaches in UK, in Europe, South America, Canada. We must have someone in Mexico, but I can’t think right now, but we must. I mean, definitely a lot of North America, it’s but, because I work from home. It’s virtual. You know, the coaches do a lot of their coaching through zoom. What I always say to people and so, so our customers primarily are in the States. There’s zero reason we couldn’t work with somebody in another country. You know, one point I was speaking to somebody in Israel, and then just got too hard with trying to get people there during the war, but that would be an easy one. And what I always say to people, you know, the employers, is, listen like these coaches are capitalists, you know, if you want to pay them their day rate to go to your city, you know, and you know, pay for their airfare and pay for their hotel, they’ll do it in a heartbeat. You know, that’s not a problem, as long as you schedule enough time. But yeah, I my pitch is, like virtual just because it’s more affordable, you save money. But you know, like that one thing we did that hospital that was in person, and so I went and two other coaches. We flew up to that town and were there for the day. But again, it says a little different cost and but some people, like the hospital, really liked it because they wanted it makes kind of sense for them, right? Because they wanted people to really be focused, not be distracted, put their phones away, all that kind of stuff. I mean,

Mark McBride-Wright 48:12
it’s different energy. It’s a different it’s a different outcome that them, because it what a session like that, an off site or an on site is like you’re filling time maybe within an off site that they already have planned so they can bring you in for an interactive session that then maybe kicks off some subsequent virtual coaching, that then becomes part of your bespoke solution for them, that kicks off the six month Exactly. Yeah. Great

Francie Jain 48:40
point, exactly. And I think, you know, one of the things that I like about the long term coaching is that, you know, if you I also spend a lot of time researching adult pedagogy, like how adults learn and how adults also learn online. And it turns out, really interestingly, the people who understand that the best are community colleges in America, yeah, they’re also, by the way, measured on metrics, graduation rate, course completion rate, all this stuff. So I went to this one conference, and it was fascinating and, um, but so one of the things that adults need when they learn is like they need reflection. They need to socialize a little bit. Yeah, even like presenting helps them learn, you know, any kind of discussion, but like, it’s so interesting, like, and it’s time, so it’s not like, and that’s why the conference thing kind of drives me crazy, because it’s not like, you’re, you’re listening to somebody, and then you’re like, you know, it in your heart, you know, two days later, and you’ll use it every day. It’s like, you have to practice it. You have to have feedback. I’ve got applying it, yeah, yeah. And there’s just, it’s not like a rote memorization the way, when we were like five and we were learning, you know what colors, you know how to read, or something, but it’s like there’s much more sort of integration that goes into learning. Adult. And so that’s why I really like, sort of, like, chunks of hours over six months or a year or whatever, because then you can kind of start to integrate it. It starts to make sense. You taught, you know, make connections in your brain. And so everything’s, you know, different strokes for different folks, right? Because, I mean, everything’s going to be a little bit different. There’ll be benefits. And you’re making me think about.

Mark McBride-Wright 50:23
So my book came out last year called the safe leader, and on the back of it, we’ve built a training course that’s two days long that we’ve now had certified for accreditation, and it’s, you know, one module per, letter, share, act, feel, empower. It’s essentially a mix of storytelling practice alongside safety concepts and what have you. And we’ve kind of stuffed it all into two days, and maybe there’s a there’d be a benefit in stretching it out with our pilot cohort, we did stretch out over four months. I think we did, sort of six weeks in between each module, which is quite long actually.

Francie Jain 51:13
What if you did, you know, what you could do? A lot of these coaches seem to do is, I always think, by the way, like the smartest thing you can do as a coach, or any, like, any kind of solopreneur, is have some kind of, like, independent learning that someone can do, like, like a book, like you said, or like a video version. You could almost have a thing where maybe, like, you do the training, then, like a week later, there’s like a mini module where you write something down, or Yeah, and it, or you get together with a group to discuss it, and, and you don’t even have to be involved, right?

Mark McBride-Wright 51:49
But synchronous learning,

Francie Jain 51:52
yeah, or even it’s like, hey, whichever four people can meet at 8pm on Monday night, we’ll have a study group, and then that will count for your credits and XYZ, you know, that kind of thing and and that way it makes your life a little bit easier, and you don’t have to always be on, yeah. But I do think that, like, there’s, there’s so much to that, or it could be like, before we meet, you know, on Friday, watch this hour long video, and we’re going to discuss it, and then again, like that. Also, you know what you’re going to say? You’ve probably said it 100 times. I can just

Mark McBride-Wright 52:27
record it. Yeah, yeah, no, I like it. I like it. Certainly, when I’ve done, I’ve done self investment in coaches, like, what I’ve been coached for different, you know, either for sales or for, like, leadership development or for public speaking, I’ve had a public speaking coach, and I always, because there’s such big investments as well. You know, the I always want to make sure I’m showing up as the good students, so they do similar things. They’ll set me tasks to do. They’ve maybe got an online learning platform where they’ve recorded content for people that just want to access online content, rather than do the big investment in one to one time. But I’ll still have that as a support content that can then do a head off a one on one together. So maybe just Yeah, building that out a bit deeper is what’s next. Or

Francie Jain 53:16
even, like, a workbook is cool too, you know? I mean, there’s so much cool stuff, you know, or, like, prompts, a book of prompts. Or I just think that, like, I always really admire coaches when they come up with these, because it’s a really good way, like, scale your business and and not be always having to be in person

Mark McBride-Wright 53:35
that will time. Time is your most valuable commodity. Isn’t as it’s your

Francie Jain 53:39
and that’s the issue for scaling 100% and that’s a scaling thing. It’s like, how do you make it so that people still get access to and but you’re the cost of your time is being taken into account?

Mark McBride-Wright 53:51
Yeah, totally love it. Okay, quick fire question, what’s the best leadership advice you’ve ever received?

Francie Jain 54:01
Oh, I think really, it’s find the North Star and stick to it. And it just makes everything so much easier.

Mark McBride-Wright 54:10
What’s one moment you’re especially proud of in building Terra walk?

Francie Jain 54:18
I think probably like the first time someone paid me

Mark McBride-Wright 54:22
absolutely what’s one skill every founder should develop, good one

Francie Jain 54:32
probably figuring out sales,

Mark McBride-Wright 54:38
coffee or tea, tea. What’s your go to? Way to reset or recharge?

Francie Jain 54:44
Ooh, good question. I have so many. I walk my dog a lot. I love a good series on Netflix. Yeah, me too. Me too. I play tennis. I play tennis matches.

Mark McBride-Wright 54:59
Oh. Okay, so nice. You’ve got your well being wheel.

Speaker 1 55:03
Don’t worry about me on that one that’s well well elaborated, yeah,

Mark McBride-Wright 55:08
who’s someone you admire for how they lead through complexity? Oh, gosh,

Francie Jain 55:19
oh, I’ll tell you, this is, it’s an American politician. Her name is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. Yeah, and you can disagree or agree with her politics, but man, is she able to take complicated things and turn it into a very simple, like, binary, yeah, it is so impressive. Yeah. And like, she’ll say, like, she’s one time who said something like, no one should be too poor to live. And I was like, Who can disagree with that? That is so brilliant. And I think even the Pope said something similar to that. And I the Pope is a good one too. I think that, like people, they’re able to really distill things into like, almost, like, moral, yeah, on our helpful, because you stop again. You stop leading with the ego or with, like, some assumption of what things are going to cost or whatever it’s more about. Why are we doing you like, why are we doing this? Hmm,

Mark McBride-Wright 56:17
love it. What’s a book or Reese? What’s a book or resource you recommend often?

Francie Jain 56:22
Okay, yes, that’s such a good one. Um, it’s called turn the ship around. Have you heard of this book?

Mark McBride-Wright 56:28
No, I’m guessing there’s a copy nearby. I often bring it over to

Francie Jain 56:31
people. It’s so good, and let me tell you about it. It’s written by a retired US captain, naval captain of a submarine, nuclear submarine. Wow. And basically, he was like, this system is not working. And one of the things that was going on in the nuclear submarine is that it’s, they’re like, you know, highly what’s the word explosive? Right? Potentially explosive. So everything needs to be controlled really well. And so what was happening is people were going up to him and saying things like, can I use this screw to replace that? Like, just this very minute things. He was like, the bottleneck for Yeah. And he was like, This is absurd. Like, I can’t, you know, I don’t know. I can’t do this. This can’t keep going on. And at the time, also, they had like, terrible morale. No one wanted to be on the ship, like they were failing all their like score like tests. And so he changed it so that instead of like, being like, top down, it was bottom up. And so as a the and whatever your job was you were the expert and you and basically what you were meant to do then is pitch your higher up and say, Hey, we have a problem with the screw came loose. I intend to replace this screw with this screw because these reasons, blah, blah. And then the senior person would say yes, or they would ask more questions, or they would maybe say, go back to the drawing board. But there wasn’t this sense of, like, I don’t know, you know, and then if you got it wrong, as the junior person, be like, well, he told me to do it. Yeah, I love that. And so apparently that was made this massive change on the ship. It’s an incredible book I read all the time. Yeah, I love

Mark McBride-Wright 58:16
it. What’s something you’ve changed your mind about in recent years?

Francie Jain 58:22
Oh, I’m a very decisive person. I’m gonna have to think about that one. What have I changed my mind about? I mean, well, one thing I’d say with this business at least, is I just do what I think is the right thing. I just don’t accept boilerplate or the conventional wisdom, and it actually has made this business be better. And I find that, like, that’s, that’s been something that it’s I didn’t necessarily understand. I think when I started this, like, it turns out that, like, the DNA of a business can really be everywhere. And if you do that, then, like you said, you’re really aligned. And also it’s just I feel lighter, like I don’t, I don’t have, like, the secret thing that I’m worried that someone’s gonna ask about, or this horrible thing we once did, like we don’t, yeah, have any of that.

Mark McBride-Wright 59:15
What’s the most powerful feedback you’ve received from a client? I um,

Speaker 1 59:26
powerful feedback, I don’t know.

Francie Jain 59:31
I just like it when people tell me their preferences, because I always think, I always realize, like, I am just not the average person. Like, the way my brain works is just not what most people think. And so, like, the other day, I was talking to a client, and I I like, oh, so I presented to her with 21 options, and I was like, that’s probably too many, yeah, but, but I was like, but humans like to choose, and you know, I’ll get the feedback. And she said, fancy. Yeah, and I shouldn’t say anything, but then I said, was 21 too many? And she said, Yes. She said, I’ve been the stage of my life. I just want, like, three, you know, like, I don’t. And so that’s actually operationally harder for us, right, right, right? And so now I’m thinking about, you know, that’d probably be great thing for AI to do, but I think that that’s something that I need to work on, right is like, how do we, what do we do to make it easier on the the decider, who’s already probably having a million decisions to make, and, and, I think, and that’s like, going to be one of these things, again, it’s like, the the plateaus of the business, like, that’s a huge step, if we can figure out a really smart way, yeah, because what I’m afraid of is reducing the size and not making someone delighted.

Mark McBride-Wright 1:00:51
Yeah, maybe just bundle into menus of options that are clustered into, like, you know, service packs or something, and then, and then you have the high point, the low point, and people always choose the middle priced one, and put all the commonly chosen options clustered into that middle option. And then then you’ve got a scalable solution maybe,

Francie Jain 1:01:12
yeah, I know it’s and it’s a hard, it’s really, actually harder than it sounds to do and but I love that. Like, I love sort of elegance of solutions. So like, the idea like that could be our goal. You’re

Mark McBride-Wright 1:01:23
right, using an AI tool to help you, like, compartmentalize and segment and cluster. No, it’s a really good

Francie Jain 1:01:29
like, but think about like, Airbnb, right? And like, you’re looking at a map, and they’re like, you know, you’re like, trying to go near a stadium or something, okay, you’re like, there are 40 houses. And like, these are the different prices as my budget doesn’t want to spend and and so for that at least you can, kind of like, you look at, like, distance, maybe, and price and like, maybe, that’s the way you could sort of rank them. But with you have everyone has the same price that there’s a budget I reached out to everyone with, and they have like, all these different, you know, things they’re offering. Yeah, I mean, it’s just so interesting. It’s like, maybe it’s almost like someone said to me, Well, maybe what you can do is you can say to them, how many do you want to see? Because there might be, like, a maximizer out there who wants to see 21 and there might be someone saying, I just want to see three. And so maybe that’s also part of, like, the human choice too, or, you know, so it’s like, something I’m, like, really struggling with and but I it was really valuable feedback. And also, by the way, what I learned with that one is sometimes just really need to ask the question and not assume someone’s going to tell you what they think. You know, just

Mark McBride-Wright 1:02:41
finally, what advice would you give to your younger self at the start of your entrepreneurial journey?

Francie Jain 1:02:46
Okay, this is something I keep thinking when you’re speaking, and this is so I think I really wish I knew this when I was younger. We know you’re saying your heart and your head and your gut are aligned, or your core, I think that like that is 100% true, right? When it’s all working, but there’s a, there’s like, a false flag when you don’t know something and it seems weary, yeah, also makes you uncomfortable, and that is not the same thing as your gut telling you it’s wrong. Yeah, that’s true that I have gotten caught up in many times in my life, right? And so, like looking back, I wish that things I didn’t know about I was more curious about, and just like, investigated them more then it’s come from Yeah, or just like, hey, listen, maybe it’s just a conversation. Or it doesn’t mean that, like, you just don’t do something, which, I think there’s a little bit of that where I was like, Oh, I don’t want to like it. You know, it’s the only like good advice also is, like, always go to the interview. Like, if someone wants to interview for your job, they’re seeing something that maybe you don’t see. And it’s worth it just to go and just see. It doesn’t take, you know, what is that an hour of your life? And I think that, like, that’s something I wish I had known, because there were many times I can look back where I was thinking, Oh, that’s not for me. You’re like, that thing I was saying about with this cell with this selling in a gallery. But actually, turns out that’s like a strength I have. I just didn’t know it.

Mark McBride-Wright 1:04:07
Yeah, well, as long as you discover it eventually, you can still visit that and apply it exactly. I have really enjoyed this conversation.

Francie Jain 1:04:17
Thank you for having me. What a pleasure.

Mark McBride-Wright 1:04:19
If people want to get in touch with you, find out more about Terra. What about your work? How should they do that? Well,

Francie Jain 1:04:25
the best place is our website. So terawatt.co, C, O, no, M, are like most active social media is LinkedIn. I’m relatively active there, and I, I love to do podcasts. I love chatting with people and yeah, those are probably the best places. Thank you

Mark McBride-Wright 1:04:44
fabulous. Well, thank you so much, Francie, it’s been great. Thanks. Thanks so much. Have a good day. Thank you too.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai