Adriènne Kelbie CBE joins The SAFE Leader Podcast to unpack the reality of leadership beyond titles and job descriptions. From her early experiences navigating personal hardship to becoming Chief Executive of the UK’s nuclear regulator, Adriènne shares a raw and honest account of what it means to lead with resilience, emotional intelligence, and courage. She reflects on the cost of poor leadership, the danger of staying in your comfort zone, and why tuning into your emotions is not just useful, but essential, for making real impact.
In this wide-ranging conversation with host Mark McBride-Wright, Adriènne explores how engineering must evolve to become more human, how psychological safety fuels innovation, and why meaningful change starts with those willing to be different. Whether you’re early in your leadership journey or already at the top, this episode will challenge, inspire, and encourage you to think differently about what kind of leader you want to be, and the legacy you want to leave.
Read the Transcript
Mark McBride-Wright 0:00
Mark, hello. Welcome to the next episode of the safe leader podcast. I’m your host, Mark McBride Wright, and today I’m delighted to be joined by Adrian Kelby CBE, chief coach and founder of adriankelby.com so Adrian is a globally respected leadership coach, strategic advisor and former chief executive of the UK nuclear regulator, a powerful advocate for diversity, psychological safety and Human Centered Leadership. She brings a wealth of board experience from sectors including nuclear, oil and gas, social care, local government and diverse small medium enterprises. As the founder of Adrienne kelby.com Adrienne now helps leaders avoid the pitfalls of sticking to their comfort zones, unintentionally eroding trust and overworking instead of leading with a background that spans cultural change, crisis management and complex stakeholder engagement, she is renowned for her ability to challenge with care, inspire through insight and lead with warmth. Her clients value her ability to challenge with care. Inspire through insight quickly to help them lead with clarity, courage and confidence. She holds a CBE for services to the nuclear industry and inclusion and fellowships with the nuclear Institute, the Energy Institute and the Chartered Institute for Professional Development. Her work continues to influence executive leadership across sectors, shaping safer, healthier and higher performing organizations. Adrian, welcome.
Adriènne Kelbie 1:36
I think what we’re saying is, I’m really old, right?
Mark McBride-Wright 1:40
Not at all, not at all, a well tenured career that is now shifting into but we’ll get there. We’ll find out what we’re up to now. Okay, nice to see you, Martin, thanks for having me. It’s a delight, and we’ve been connected virtually in two dimensional form for eight years. It must be, I think, yeah, it’s taken us a while. It has, it has, yeah, I reached out to you way back when I set equal engineers up, and you were, you know, you helped, you helped me in those early days with, with getting into nuclear. So I’m really appreciate that. And I just can’t believe it’s taken this long to actually hear your voice and recognize that we’re from the same bit of the world. Let’s hope it’s worth the wait, absolutely, absolutely. So on the podcast, we like to start off with winding back, finding out about the story of the person we have in front of us, the journey that took them, the journey that they went on to get to where they’re at now. So let’s get a virtual time machine. Go back in time and find out a bit about the young Adrian Kelby. Tell us about
Adriènne Kelbie 2:49
her. Well, it’s a while ago now, but the young Adrian Kelby, only child, an engineer. Dad make Eng, for those who need to know the precise and my mum, who actually worked in she was one of the first female supervisors in ici before she got pregnant with me. So clever woman, but my mom actually suffered a disability when I was around about seven or eight years old, so I went through that change of being a good student, worked hard, two parents that were pretty average to overnight quite a different life. I really think that set the tone for me of recognizing life throws you curveballs now and again. You need to be pretty resilient and pretty stable and actually recognize what you’ve got when you’ve got
Mark McBride-Wright 3:38
it. That’s a young age to learn that lesson. That’s a really young age to learn that lesson.
Adriènne Kelbie 3:43
I never thought about it at the time, because as kids, that is the way it is. And I was quite happy in my own world. You know, I’ll be honest, I was always quite happy to read or try new things, tapestries, sewing, ponies, but my dad was an absolute stalwart. And you know, I think the young Adrian benefited from having two fantastic parents. I repaid their kindness and investment in him by refusing to go to university. I did have the grades. I just didn’t want to go. I thought it’d be really boring, and I didn’t really know what I would have done. So Right? Goodness, I didn’t. I thought of accountancy, and I’m really glad I didn’t do that. So I agreed a two year deal I’d go to college in Ayr, which you will know, in the beautiful west coast of Scotland. And I didn’t even manage to finish that again, not because of grades, but I dropped out after one year and went off to Carlisle in the north of England to take my first job informing my mum and dad that I’d done so rather than consulting. So I think I also know from a young age that I knew my own mind, I was prepared to take accountability and stand by that, and I perhaps have become more aware, as I’ve got a bit more mature of the fact that. Other people rather tolerated me doing things that were a bit unusual, and I’ll be honest, that has set the tone for my life and my career. Nothing’s been conventional. It’s all been fun, it’s all been busy, but, you know, perhaps a less shy version of Adrian that you meet today,
Mark McBride-Wright 5:19
so you’ve really lived that notion of squiggly career then, oh yeah, like hard graft and grit and building a reputation and investment in yourself, which is one of the best investments you can make, yeah, in that self belief. So What? What? How take us through your career, then what led to what? You know, you your Carlisle, you said you ended up when you informed your parents. So what
Adriènne Kelbie 5:51
were my mum and dad? I packed my Capri which was all the rage at the time, drove off with with a very small bag to start something. And that really for me, I was starting as an office temp. Essentially, I kept my ears open, knocked my mouth shut. People often think ears open, mouth shut is not, it’s both. But in balance, I asked continuous questions. I think it was the only person at my grade that would say, why do we do it like that? And what did it do before it did listen. How does this work when it gets to the other end? So I was in secretarial and admin roles, which I swear make me efficient these days. You know, I am my own PA, thankfully. So I’ve had some training, at least in that, but I was always interested in the system and always interested in why do people do the things that they do so working in companies like digital, which is an absolute behemoth in the day of innovation, I had access to Videocon in the 90s work the way it does now, but I had to set that up so seeing the future of possibility, and then I moved into a training role. I was seconded, and somebody offered me that. So I said, Yes, only if you give me some training. I did that. I became qualified. Then I moved into training coordination, getting a lot of European funds, and working with what I think we would still call disadvantaged people in poorer communities. And that was a real eye opener for a fairly certainly not rich, but you know, we never didn’t eat in my household to work with people who had been in a very different background, right? So again, I think that maturity in early 20s of WoW, life really can look different, and not because you’ve made a misstep, but sometimes that’s circumstance. So I guess I was beginning to be perhaps a little bit more appreciative of all that I had still. And then I applied to go and help set up lottery funding to good causes back in 95 okay, so still working with charities in the voluntary sector where I started, but beginning to give grants out. And for 15 years I had, I think, four or five roles from the ops director in Scotland, two directorships and the deputy chief exec, wow. And I really worked hard there on my leadership, and very lucky that that organization supported me to do so. But I realized that 40 in a boardroom one day I’d hit what I now call that, that kind of obsequious, seductive non friend my comfort zone right sitting in a meeting, and I realized I don’t really care what the answer is to this particular policy. We’ve discussed it so often, and I literally decided in that meeting that I was going to leave pretty quickly. What am I going to do? Well, I don’t know. Maybe I’m just this good because my team’s amazing, and they were so I tried a job I’d never done, a sector I’d never been in, and a place I’d never been to, and that took me into local authorities, where I led huge change over the next couple of years. So again, right out my comfort zone at just the time when funding cuts were brought in 28% to come out of that body. So wow, that was big and established trust while cutting huge numbers of jobs, pretty tough burden to bear, but not as tough as the services that we were cutting and the people who needed them. So again, another big dose of reality, of humility and of very, very steep learning curve about how things get done in different sector. Then DBS disclosure and barring service merger, criminal record safeguarding, just at the point where safeguarding scandals have come right onto the agenda. So very politically interesting, and then onr are totally different, again, Nuclear Regulation. So that was me to the age of 50 and five years ago, I stepped down. I still do chair and non exec roles, but these days, really, I spend my time coaching a squiggly career. I think it qualifies, right? Yeah,
Mark McBride-Wright 9:58
definitely, definitely, but I can see. See the the grounding in your earlier years, in your formative years that would have helped you secure that role at the onr. You know the the connection then to accessibility and safety and social justice, social disadvantage, working in the lottery, in, you know, helping give out, give out funding like it’s a real I guess it’s quite rare to find someone that’s worked in voluntary sector, in the third sector, in government, and also then in policy development and corporate because, yeah, primarily,
Adriènne Kelbie 10:41
primarily private sector, you know, big companies, oil and gas, say, utilities, yeah, it may be unusual, and I think that’s actually what’s helped me with it. You know, being able to share my experiences that are diverse, perhaps more diverse than than many, but not all, you know, feeling my way through roles when I don’t know the answer to things, but I’ve really learned to trust what my emotions are telling me about situations, especially in high pressure, where we tend to turn off, you know, our emotional brain actually to lean on. And
Mark McBride-Wright 11:19
there’s, that’s, that is a type of coaching, isn’t it? It’s like intuitional coaching or intuitional leadership. It’s like listening to yourself, isn’t it? It’s like trust in your gut, which, as you say, sometimes we were, for those of us that are quite fact based, we ignore that part because it’s we believe it to be irrational. But actually, there’s some truth in that, isn’t it? And you’ve, you’ve, you’ve been in touch with that. It sounds like each time you’ve made these pivots,
Adriènne Kelbie 11:46
yeah, I think for a lot of people, as you know, as leaders, let’s think about it. What are we actually trained in? Usually, the technical thing in which we’re working, especially if we’re a specialist? Well, I was a journalist, so my training was in leadership. But I can’t think of anything I’ve done, whether it’s Oxford uni, Henley college, you know, some of these really big, you know, Cranfield, who taught people to deal with the emotions that are attached to having responsibility over other people. You know, how often I have a client that comes in and the, you know, really under stress, under tension, and it’s clear that there’s a battle between their emotional intelligence and what they think is the only other intelligence they have, because it’s a lack of alignment emotions. Gonna feel uncomfortable. I’m doing something, but it doesn’t feel right, so I’m just gonna work harder at it. Doesn’t tend to work. Helping people figure out how to tune into that really helps with what I think is the messy work of leadership, which is feelings. Let’s be honest, if we didn’t need emotions in life, what would it look like? We’d have no love, we’d have no care, would have no sadness, certainly wouldn’t have any anger. And all of these emotions play a range in what we do as leaders. Turning them off is like cutting off your two legs and your two arms and expecting to be your full you. I love to help people turn that on in an appropriate way. Yeah,
Mark McBride-Wright 13:11
yeah. So are you getting with the what balance do you have right now then with like, Do you have a number of clients that you take on with your coaching? Is that how you’re architecting your calendar these days, your schedule? Do you have? Do you do a lot of group coaching, or is it one on one with executives like, how are you spending your time these days?
Adriènne Kelbie 13:29
I love that curiosity, and I’m spending my time. My calendar is open to my clients, so I spend my time when they need me and what’s available. And I’m always amazed by what comes through the door. I really am, you know, who’s got something? How did you find me? Usually, LinkedIn or my website, or I heard somebody or, you know, I saw a podcast. I think, Oh, this is exciting. I don’t know anything about this. Tell me more, but it’s interesting. You say that I feel like you’ve been bugging my office, maybe because I have been thinking about doing some group stuff, because one on one, coaching is, is intensive, and it, you know, it’s not for everybody in terms of time and but I’m thinking, yeah, maybe there’s a little group thing, and maybe folks listen to this, yeah, or out there could, could let me know what would be useful. Because my My thing is, is it useful? Is it interesting? And will it make a difference to people? That’s what I that’s what I say yes to. And if it makes those criteria, I am daft enough to say yes nearly all of the time and then figure out how to make it happen.
Mark McBride-Wright 14:37
Yeah, definitely. I’m part of a few communities where, like, the service user, the service I make them sound like robots. They’re not their fellow business owners, where I’m then a customer to their services, and they maybe have, like, multiple layers. There’s the one on one that you can do with them. That’s the big ticket thing. Then there’s the. Lower Level investment, where you join their community, and it’s either a circle network or a WhatsApp group, and that’s where you get the camaraderie with others that are and then there’s sort of like peer to peer learning and coaching that’s facilitated inherently within the conversations that happen in those WhatsApp channels. And then the the service provider usually provides some sort of midpoint thing where you could do a training course or or a cohort style and retreat, you know, and then you’ll get something as an output of it. So I think that’s where I think you would go if you’ve been doing the one to one and 10 stuff with, with, with leaders that I’ve heard I don’t, haven’t really done much coaching myself as someone, but I have heard that that when you’re coaching someone, it can be quite draining on your battery,
Adriènne Kelbie 15:55
sure, because there’s a lot of energy and on both people. You know, it’s a partnership. Really unlike many others, it’s not the same as where your chief executive or your director or whoever your line manager is. If you’re a technically gifted individual going into your first leadership role, it’s a different terrain. Just being even better what you used to do is not going to get you success in the role. And very often, our leaders aren’t equipped, either with the time or indeed, the skill set to help us do that. So I think having the outlet of somebody who’s invested purely in their development, I have no other agenda, can be really helpful. But I agree, you know, perhaps I am in my comfort zone because I love the one to one work. And, of course, I do group work with companies. I’m in companies now, you know, serving if you like their groups, but, yeah, maybe, maybe I’ll get around to doing something which is a bit more in the community. But thanks for that prod. I like
Mark McBride-Wright 16:50
it that’s all happy to brainstorm with you. The one for those that I know that I’ve got to your level that then do do coaching. It, it’s, it’s where you then get the life coaching that comes in as well, isn’t it? It’s not just about the professional. It’s also about the personal. It’s about the balance with partners that they may have or children that they may have, and, you know, maybe even caring upwards for parents, etc. Do you find that that’s the sort of spinning plates that your clients tend to have? It’s not their work self that needs the coaching. It’s actually the holistic side of them and trying to balance everything in their life. It
Adriènne Kelbie 17:37
can be quite different from person to person, you know, and I certainly agree. You know, shifting from CEO and non exec, and you know, certain chair roles to more coaching, I’ve gone back through the learning I am required to be coached and supervised myself as an accredited coach and doing all that. So it helps, you know, bring the balance. I feel that when people come, they might present something, or if the line manager refers them to company, they might present something. And let’s say, you know, I mean, a really common one is I’m struggling to give difficult feedback to people, and or I really am struggling with conflict. I’d rather avoid it, and that’s very common, so we work through it, and I can go, Okay, what we’re doing in the workplace, I’ll get a view of it. But if I start to ask, what’s your belief about conflict? What did your family look like when there was a disagreement or an argument between your parents, or how did you disagree with your siblings? You know, what do you believe will happen genuinely if you give this difficult feedback to someone? And I think that’s where people are able to make connections, right? Oh, yeah. Well, actually, you know, when I was young, I mean, if my dad said it, that was it okay? So when you’re dealing with this older man who you think may be getting something wrong, but you’re afraid to tell him, what do you see there? Oh, yeah. Okay, so the good news is, we’ve got a pattern that you’re brilliant at. We’ve recognized that. We now just need to create a new one, and it feels a bit easier thing. Oh, I’m not an idiot, I’m not a dummy. And I’m not doing something wrong, I just realize I’ve been trained for something different, and that can help people feel good about letting go of this rather than if we focus on the relationship between them and the current line manager, it’s not going to change it. It’s something much more deep rooted,
Mark McBride-Wright 19:36
yeah, like a summation of learned behaviors over time that’s infused how they’re showing up in the world just now. So interested with your you know you’ve got fellowship at a few energy well engineering centered organizations, so just keen to get your. Take on engineering and your time working with engineers, you know, where do you think we are as a profession just now with in terms of the challenges that we face, the leadership that you see from clients, from companies, individuals, even in engineering, what do you think are some of the challenges and obstacles that we’re dealing with, culturally peppering and some diversity and inclusion in there? Like really keen to to get your take on that.
Adriènne Kelbie 20:34
It’s a great question. And as I said, my dad was an engineer, so you know, I’ve sort of been raised with all of the positives about what engineers can achieve in the world. I then went even further and married an engineer as well. So, you know, I’ve got some personal experience as well as work related. As we just said, it’s important to bring these things together, isn’t it? And, you know, I find engineering exciting. I’ll be honest, if somebody had said to me, you could go to university and do engineering, maybe I’d have gone I know. I now think, Ah, I’m not going to do it now, but actually, because what I observe is the ability to change the world. And I think engineering is shifting as a profession because of the technology that’s available, the materials that are available, or what my dad wouldn’t have given to have some of the materials and CAD and 3d printing available to him now that he could only have dreamed of if he was Star Trek, you know, back when he was doing his apprenticeship. So I feel excited about a new breed and a new generation of engineers coming in with pre programmed, open minds about these kind of different opportunities. I think where engineering still has a challenge and needs to do more is in being open minded, recognizing how innovation can happen. I mean, the world is built on engineering innovations, but they tend to have been from brilliant individuals motivated to do so, rather than fully concerted efforts on the part of communities or companies. And when I think of nuclear, for example, where I still do a lot of work, oil and gas to help people shift to really creating innovative cultures, requires the same kind of shift as we need for inclusive cultures. I’m fascinated by the research on this. It is, it is the same leadership behaviors that inculcate both Well, why wouldn’t we? Has got to be the answer. But I think the you know, the challenge now is about making engineering, not more technical, but more human, in order to extrapolate the benefits of the technology that we’ve got. And I’m still frustrated that the training we’re giving to engineers at most levels in their careers, does not include people leadership. I don’t mean process management. I don’t mean safety management. I don’t mean, you know, manage the HR systems. I really mean that confidence to be with your team and your colleagues and your uppers and your stakeholders and have a really meaningful conversation that adds value. And let me ask you, engineering may be different to all the other all the other professions, but how many meetings are a waste of time? Yeah, how many conversations do you walk away from thinking, I think I know what you meant. I don’t know. I think, I’m not sure. I’ll just keep my head down. I’m sure it’ll be fine. Somebody will say something if it’s really bad, won’t they, you know, or I have no idea what the board does around here. Who knows what that change is all about? You know, and being better engineers is important. But it’s not the whole story, we need to thank the leaders to allow the better engineers to change the world.
Mark McBride-Wright 24:05
Yeah, I am so happy to hear you say that, because on that’s the way I felt, being a safety engineer, but also being quite an extroverted, personable engineer as well, and not too much on the technical, technical in with the numbers, you know, and then in setting up and doing what I’ve done in diversity, seeing like that big chasm, that big gap in capability To be an effective people leader. Because usually people have gotten to engineers have gotten to where they’re at based on their technical acumen, of course, but then you know as to your point, they’ve not had the people leadership development. So then we’re surprised when we’ve got about a profession. Of leaders that are low on the EQ side of things, you know? And I think that’s the rebalance that’s needed. And so, you know, the little dip in the ocean that we’re impact we’re trying to make is the safe leader training course that we’ve devised on the back of of my book, where the framework safe stands for share, act, feel, empower, and it’s trying to encourage engineers to do that deep, self introspective reflection on what’s their story, what can they or they share with others? And then, by doing so, it creates more stories out in the world where there’s a higher probability of interpersonal connection with a story that resonates with you. And if we get more men doing that that don’t often do that and start being vulnerable, we’ll start to create more human, centered leadership. But my challenge is, like, that’s the big, bold ambition. You know? Where do you start? Where? Where do you go in at you know, I’m like, do I? Do I target like managing directors first? We’ve got a really good relationship with a construction company ongoing now that we’re starting to sort of seep into but then I’m also a visiting professor at UCL, and I’m thinking, well, let’s, let’s expedite the rate of uptake. Create a feed forward loop here by trying to then get this training into or a version of it into the curriculum for the first, second, third, fourth years, so that when they’re coming off the education conveyor belt and over the next decade and coming into industry, they’ve got a better grounding point.
Adriènne Kelbie 26:42
I think the answer is, you do what you can. From a capacity perspective, there are enough of us, I think, available to the sectors to support helping them understand the value of it. And I don’t mean the price I keep getting this safety is expensive. Try an accident. We all know that. But I think, well, what is the cost of poor leadership? Yeah, not even in turnover. Because, you know, at the moment, the market’s difficult. Not that many people are going to voluntarily leave a job because they don’t like the climate. But they will silently down tools. They will silently, you know, have a, as we call it in Scotland, a dirty protest. You’re available, but you’re just not, you know, speaking up and shifting it. And I think that is the silent killer of innovation, where people are just quietly giving up. They’re not destructive, they’re not difficult, they’re just not engaged. And I think the price and the costs of poorly engaged teams, teams that fail to have meaningful conversations, teams that have lots of meetings that don’t go anywhere. And you know, you really notice that the cost of that, but it doesn’t show up in a budget line. Yeah, doesn’t show up in the bottom line. Nobody that I know of, if anybody’s listening and has it, let me know. But I’ve never seen a set of management accounts that has somebody holding complete waste of time budget line. Yeah, even if we had one of them, we’d start seeing the cost of not implementing these kinds of work, these kinds of programs with people personally. Your question, where do we go in? We go in with the willing, because that’s what is needed to create some form of tipping point. And actually, there are enough companies who are doing this where we can see the results. We have got the case studies. You know, the ROI in coaching is 70% plus. Oh, wow, one to one coaching. That’s why I tend to invest in it, because I know and I’m pretty confident that my own stats are, you know, beyond even that. But it’s because when people show up, they’re already predisposed to put the time and the effort in. And that’s where I think we need to get companies that really back this, not just the HR team, but the chief execs, the MDS, the chief execs like me who would have this on the board table saying, you know, culture is king, right here. How do we help people behave in ways that create fast paced, agile, accurate, safe cultures? Because let’s not forget, a lot of us are in nuclear, you know, oil and gas, these are high hazard, highly regulated industries. So another resistance point I get is, yeah, but you know, but what’s most important in here is safety. Yeah, yes, it is. And psychological safety is part of that. Yeah, huge thanks to Amy Edmondson for putting a name on something I didn’t know it was called 20 years ago, yeah, this sense of, if you have teams who speak up, not just can speak up, not just are told to speak up, yeah, but actually speak up, then your chance that safety and reliability, yeah, exponentially improve, that requires us to lean into conflict. Act. It requires us to lean into the fear of upsetting somebody or hurting their feelings or maybe being wrong. And those are human skills. Those are the things that we have to let people do. I
Mark McBride-Wright 30:11
like your point that you said a moment ago about there are enough of us at the moment to make it happen. I think what’s lacking is the coordination, or the centralized vision, and then translating that through into then the action. And I guess that’s what I’m trying to do, actually, that is fundamentally what I’m trying to do with the safe leader, with eco engineers, being a safety engineer by background, and a fledgling dei practitioner. And I wonder, and I still believe, actually, even in the world that we’re in now, with things going more to the right in some countries, that by that alignment with safety, certainly for engineering, it means the uptake is going to be more successful. I think you’re speaking to engineers in the language that the that they understand?
Adriènne Kelbie 31:02
Yeah, I mean, if you go to a foreign land, you can’t speak in your own language, you know. Well, you can, you can, but it’s not necessarily as effective. What do companies want, you know, do they want a description of a process? No, they want. They want a belief there’s no such thing in, you know, in leadership development as a guarantee, but they want a belief that the chance of a return on their investment is good. Yeah, I’m pretty confident that, you know, I can make that. In fact, I’m entirely confident I can make that case, so long as they put the work in. And that’s the, you know, that can be the factor, the chemistry between people, the alignment between ways of working, but you need to bring in, if you want change, you need to bring in somebody who’s different. Yes, that’s, I think, where there’s a sympathy and an empathy and an alignment overall to the world of engineering, but enough difference to notice where it’s problematic. Yeah. And, you know, having, I think having that in the toolkit can help. And let me put, you know, let me put a hard frame on Dei. You, you know, you loosely. I think they are alluded to American shift in government policy. And I’ll say some that might surprise you. I don’t entirely disagree. I think that some of what’s been done in the name of dei has been vanity projects, yes, in some ways, political projects, and they’ve been around since I was dishing out lottery money in the 90s. And I think the problem can be that people who aren’t fully queuing into the agenda see those things. It’s a bit like reading the tabloids and thinking, you’ve read the news, they see those things, and they believe that is what dei is about, yes and and it’s not so. I understand the frustration that not just a president will have, but some perfectly rational, good, decent human beings will have with what they’ve seen as dei Yes. But I think when we step back from that and say, imagine an organization or a community or a country where everybody played their part, yeah, where the skill set was enough that we could respect difference and actually make something of it, yeah, where we could figure out that somebody away over there could solve my problem, away in here, because they Have the distance to look at it, and I have been sitting sweating over the last eight weeks, three years, 10 years, delete as applicable and that you know, positively targeted. Dei work is actually about helping companies get competitive advantage and helping communities work in ways that are safer and better for everyone, not the minorities, but for everyone. Yeah, that’s what I wish I could get over. So maybe slightly provocative. I hope some of this isn’t taken out of context in a short sound bite, but, but we need to, we need to recognize the fact that it’s been in some ways misused and abused, and that’s given, perhaps the whole thing a bad name that’s unclear.
Mark McBride-Wright 34:04
It’s definitely in the what, what, what this shift in everything has led to is the introspection of the diversity practitioner community to think, where did we go wrong? Where, where were we not framing the discussion argument correctly, you know, and I now realize in retrospect, pre George Floyd that in 2018 when I then shifted from running a LGBT organization to then setting up a company to focus on multiple diversity strands, I could sense it coming. I could sense the the not the pushback, but the lack of connection. To the overall message from the engineering leaders, etc, that I would meet. And then when I pivoted discovering the suicide rates in engineering and construction, and then thought, well, hang on, this is ironic. Inclusion is all about bringing your whole self to work, this can then land better for the white, straight male engineer that represents 84% of the engineering profession. We need to talk about dei through this lens to make them feel engaged and included. That’s where things have gone wrong, because a lot of people have felt vilified or accused, and then it’s the villagers with the pitchforks that have come at them, and what you then see is this reactionary pushback and the the in the pursuit of trying to find your community as if you’re underrepresented. For every action, there’s a reaction, and then when you find that community, so in the pursuit of inclusion, ironically, it can become exclusive, because you then find your group. But what we’ve not, what we weren’t considering, was then the Ricochet impact on the other group, on the others, you know, and I think we’re getting a realignment, a recentering on, on all of that. That’s what, that’s my take anyway, on, on what I see playing out now,
Adriènne Kelbie 36:31
yeah, I’d agree. You know, we’re all in a tribe. We we identify an in group and an out group, yeah, and, and nobody can be in every group. We’re not. And I mean by that, I’m not very so not sporty. It’s unbelievable. My husband and his kids and their family are, like, sporty. Really? Sports rugby. They play rugby. They watch the rugby. Yeah, that’s not me. And I’m like, I don’t even know what sports on. Sometimes I’m not in that group, but it doesn’t mean I’m out of the group. Yeah, you know, I think there’s a there’s a paradox here between diversity and inclusion. Actually, sometimes being diverse doesn’t mean you need to accommodate everything at one I, you know, have a lot of experience with neurodivergent individuals. I’m a qualified neurodivergent coach, because, you know, when I started to grapple with this, I didn’t realize my own differences, let alone how to work with other people. Again, engineering is one of the most neurodiverse sectors on the planet. What skills have you ever been given as an engineer to work in a neurodiverse community? Imagine if we actually yes, imagine if you knew what to do with that. But there’s this thing about, you know, groups and identities need to work together, yeah, and, you know, I’ve noticed when, when I start coaching teams for corporates, I will work with feedback, and the feedback often categorizes them and us, yeah? Them on the third floor, them in Germany, them in engineering. You know that there’s however you categorize them. There’s 100 ways, but the language is one of division. And when I noticed that I’m interested, because that’s kind of a telling the belief that they are they and therefore not on us, yeah, saw that in onr a lot. You know, where are we? We need to be on us. The baddies are outside, not inside. But it takes a lot of emotional intelligence to deal that. So again, going to feedback. One of the things I mean, my most popular guide on my website it’s the trust equation. It’s free, by the way, so check it out. But when I’m working on what creates trust, and therefore how to address feedback, that has been, shall we say, simmering gently to the point of being stinky, horrible stuff in the back kitchen, instead of a beautiful, you know, smell and aroma when feedback is coming, actually the rotting carcass of feedback that should have been given many years ago leads to division, yeah, and I think that’s what happened, as you say, you know, in some part in de and I yeah, that feedback that should have been given wasn’t because people were afraid of the backlash, and therefore it simmered gently until it exploded. And I really hope, I hope that as individuals, we understand we’ve got a lot more power than that. We don’t need corporates, we don’t need communities, we don’t need politicians to address that we we can actually do that ourselves with a little bit of helping the how? An interesting point, not one I thought we’d be discussing today. So thank you for the tour
Mark McBride-Wright 39:46
that’s we’re having a very organic conversation. I love this. So thinking ahead to the future, then what? How do you envisage the next? You know, few. Is playing out for you? What? And looking further back in well, going further forward in the future and looking back, what legacy do you hope to leave with your leadership, advocacy and coaching work?
Adriènne Kelbie 40:13
It’s a really good question, and one we should probably all think a bit more often about. You know, my mantra is, you know, about being helpful and getting people out of their comfort zones, helping them grow. And I think when I turned 50, I was lucky that lots of people sent lovely birthday messages, and a lot of them are from people that I hadn’t heard from for quite a while. I think LinkedIn must spew your birthday out in some algorithm. You’re basically outed whether you want it or not. But it actually made me feel quite emotional to say that people remembered me in perhaps a more positive light than I might have, especially coming up through the ranks. So really, I want to leave a legacy of people who care. Want to leave a legacy of organizations that deliver exceptional results whilst getting exceptional results from their people, but in ways that don’t have the collateral damage, in ways that actually develop people and give them career choices. So when they choose to stay, it’s because they want to, not because they have to. Yes, that for me, has always felt very important. As a chief exec, I wanted to equip everybody to the degree that they could leave if they wanted, but chose to stay. And I think now as a coach, I want to equip everybody with the skills to be the kind of leader everybody else wants wants to work around
Mark McBride-Wright 41:41
that’s good advice. That’s good advice. Okay, quick fire questions. Are you ready?
Adriènne Kelbie 41:49
Brian, never ready. Okay,
Mark McBride-Wright 41:51
okay, what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?
Adriènne Kelbie 42:00
I’ve had so much advice, and most of it’s been pretty blinking good. I’ve got to go back to my dad, get back on that horse, or stop whining. That’s another story I started as a show jumper. We don’t have time for that.
Mark McBride-Wright 42:13
What’s your proudest professional moment?
Adriènne Kelbie 42:20
I think leading everybody through COVID safely and well and still keeping the wheels turning. I’m really proud of how we dealt with COVID and onr.
Mark McBride-Wright 42:29
What’s one skill every leader should have kindness.
Adriènne Kelbie 42:32
I’m sorry it’s probably not a skill, but I’m going to call it a
Mark McBride-Wright 42:36
skill, a value, yeah, tea or coffee? Oh, tea.
Adriènne Kelbie 42:40
I’ve never had coffee in my life. I’m sure it’s bad for me. Imagine me on coffee.
Mark McBride-Wright 42:50
What’s your go to coaching question?
Adriènne Kelbie 42:58
What’s the feeling behind that?
Mark McBride-Wright 43:02
If you could have dinner with any leader or thinker, past or present? Who would it be?
Adriènne Kelbie 43:11
I don’t know, because I’m really looking forward to having dinner with my mum in a few weeks, because I don’t live near her. I wouldn’t say she’s a leader or a thinker, but she’s one of the loveliest people on the planet. So I’m going to go with my mum.
Mark McBride-Wright 43:23
What’s the one thing you do to unwind?
Adriènne Kelbie 43:27
Well, I’m very fortunate. I live in a warm climate, so getting some sun with a cup of tea or an occasional cocktail. Big thing where I’m completely switched off is when I scuba dive, seeing the fish and the reefs and whatever is out there, it’s impossible to be thinking about your email or your client’s problem, and clearly there is no phone notification at 30 feet. So I’m very happy when I go scuba diving.
Mark McBride-Wright 43:55
What’s the most exciting conversation you’ve had recently?
Adriènne Kelbie 43:59
Ah, tons. And honestly, aren’t conversations with people who want to develop exciting it’s my kind of purpose in life. And, well, I think I can say it out loud because it because it’s gone live today, I’ve been having some very exciting conversations with Atkins realis, one of their teams, and we’ve just gone into contract. Oh, great. So I’m quite excited about that. Congratulate, yeah, I’m always excited about the opportunity to work with folks. Fabulous.
Mark McBride-Wright 44:28
What’s one book or resource that shaped your view on leadership?
Adriènne Kelbie 44:33
Oh, have I got it here? I think it’s in my other bookcase. Simon Lancaster, any of his books, frankly, language of leadership. He’s a number one Ted talker. Look him up. Okay, Simon Lancaster, language of leadership changed the game for me. I read it at 39 I think, in fact, I mentioned in it I was he was still quite new. And I think. Did a review of the of the draft copy, but he’s an awesome speech writer, an amazing connector. So yeah, Simon’s book, Fantastic.
Mark McBride-Wright 45:09
Okay, I’ll look him up. What advice? And finally, what advice would you give your younger self, fresh into leadership,
Adriènne Kelbie 45:17
be a little kinder to yourself. I was a bit brutal. I was slightly brutal to some people as well. I apologize. I have apologized to them all, but I’ll do it again on this. But actually, I was pretty brutal with myself, and I think I made I think I got in my own way, rather than anybody else. So I suspect I’m not the only one. I wouldn’t do well, you’re a bit kinder. So again, there’s another little one. I actually created a guide, inner critic versus inner coach, because I see this come up in a lot of people. I’m working with this unkindness to oneself. So help people channel that now, so not just me. I know I’m not alone in that
Mark McBride-Wright 46:02
fabulous well. Thank you very much. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. If our listeners want to get in touch with you, want to find out more about what you offer, sounds like you’ve got a little library resources that you make available in some place. Like, how do people find this? Well,
Adriènne Kelbie 46:21
I am. I’ve never been a woman of mystery. So my brand is really simple. It’s Adrian kelby.com you can look me up on LinkedIn under my not assumed name of Adrian Kelby, or I’m kind of more active there, but my website, you’re right. It does have some free, free resources, because the most popular ones on there, really, for people, because I don’t think, I think people can get the basics from that even without spending a penny. So I hope some folks very useful. Feedback is always welcome,
Mark McBride-Wright 46:53
fantastic. And hopefully some people will be coming your way for some coaching advice or joining a future group coaching.
Adriènne Kelbie 47:02
Oh yeah, dig it in. You realize I’m gonna have to commit to that now, right? Okay, I’m gonna do it
Mark McBride-Wright 47:09
sounds like you’ve got enough business coming through with your corporates these contracts you’re landing. So capacity, it’s capacity, and so you want to make sure you’ve got time to do that scuba diving.
Adriènne Kelbie 47:23
Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Mark McBride-Wright 47:27
Have the cocktails. Brilliant. Thanks so much. Adrian, thank you. It’s
Adriènne Kelbie 47:32
been my pleasure, and I hope everybody continues to be a safe
E026: The Silent Cost of Poor Leadership
Podcast Description
Read the Transcript
Mark McBride-Wright 0:00
Mark, hello. Welcome to the next episode of the safe leader podcast. I’m your host, Mark McBride Wright, and today I’m delighted to be joined by Adrian Kelby CBE, chief coach and founder of adriankelby.com so Adrian is a globally respected leadership coach, strategic advisor and former chief executive of the UK nuclear regulator, a powerful advocate for diversity, psychological safety and Human Centered Leadership. She brings a wealth of board experience from sectors including nuclear, oil and gas, social care, local government and diverse small medium enterprises. As the founder of Adrienne kelby.com Adrienne now helps leaders avoid the pitfalls of sticking to their comfort zones, unintentionally eroding trust and overworking instead of leading with a background that spans cultural change, crisis management and complex stakeholder engagement, she is renowned for her ability to challenge with care, inspire through insight and lead with warmth. Her clients value her ability to challenge with care. Inspire through insight quickly to help them lead with clarity, courage and confidence. She holds a CBE for services to the nuclear industry and inclusion and fellowships with the nuclear Institute, the Energy Institute and the Chartered Institute for Professional Development. Her work continues to influence executive leadership across sectors, shaping safer, healthier and higher performing organizations. Adrian, welcome.
Adriènne Kelbie 1:36
I think what we’re saying is, I’m really old, right?
Mark McBride-Wright 1:40
Not at all, not at all, a well tenured career that is now shifting into but we’ll get there. We’ll find out what we’re up to now. Okay, nice to see you, Martin, thanks for having me. It’s a delight, and we’ve been connected virtually in two dimensional form for eight years. It must be, I think, yeah, it’s taken us a while. It has, it has, yeah, I reached out to you way back when I set equal engineers up, and you were, you know, you helped, you helped me in those early days with, with getting into nuclear. So I’m really appreciate that. And I just can’t believe it’s taken this long to actually hear your voice and recognize that we’re from the same bit of the world. Let’s hope it’s worth the wait, absolutely, absolutely. So on the podcast, we like to start off with winding back, finding out about the story of the person we have in front of us, the journey that took them, the journey that they went on to get to where they’re at now. So let’s get a virtual time machine. Go back in time and find out a bit about the young Adrian Kelby. Tell us about
Adriènne Kelbie 2:49
her. Well, it’s a while ago now, but the young Adrian Kelby, only child, an engineer. Dad make Eng, for those who need to know the precise and my mum, who actually worked in she was one of the first female supervisors in ici before she got pregnant with me. So clever woman, but my mom actually suffered a disability when I was around about seven or eight years old, so I went through that change of being a good student, worked hard, two parents that were pretty average to overnight quite a different life. I really think that set the tone for me of recognizing life throws you curveballs now and again. You need to be pretty resilient and pretty stable and actually recognize what you’ve got when you’ve got
Mark McBride-Wright 3:38
it. That’s a young age to learn that lesson. That’s a really young age to learn that lesson.
Adriènne Kelbie 3:43
I never thought about it at the time, because as kids, that is the way it is. And I was quite happy in my own world. You know, I’ll be honest, I was always quite happy to read or try new things, tapestries, sewing, ponies, but my dad was an absolute stalwart. And you know, I think the young Adrian benefited from having two fantastic parents. I repaid their kindness and investment in him by refusing to go to university. I did have the grades. I just didn’t want to go. I thought it’d be really boring, and I didn’t really know what I would have done. So Right? Goodness, I didn’t. I thought of accountancy, and I’m really glad I didn’t do that. So I agreed a two year deal I’d go to college in Ayr, which you will know, in the beautiful west coast of Scotland. And I didn’t even manage to finish that again, not because of grades, but I dropped out after one year and went off to Carlisle in the north of England to take my first job informing my mum and dad that I’d done so rather than consulting. So I think I also know from a young age that I knew my own mind, I was prepared to take accountability and stand by that, and I perhaps have become more aware, as I’ve got a bit more mature of the fact that. Other people rather tolerated me doing things that were a bit unusual, and I’ll be honest, that has set the tone for my life and my career. Nothing’s been conventional. It’s all been fun, it’s all been busy, but, you know, perhaps a less shy version of Adrian that you meet today,
Mark McBride-Wright 5:19
so you’ve really lived that notion of squiggly career then, oh yeah, like hard graft and grit and building a reputation and investment in yourself, which is one of the best investments you can make, yeah, in that self belief. So What? What? How take us through your career, then what led to what? You know, you your Carlisle, you said you ended up when you informed your parents. So what
Adriènne Kelbie 5:51
were my mum and dad? I packed my Capri which was all the rage at the time, drove off with with a very small bag to start something. And that really for me, I was starting as an office temp. Essentially, I kept my ears open, knocked my mouth shut. People often think ears open, mouth shut is not, it’s both. But in balance, I asked continuous questions. I think it was the only person at my grade that would say, why do we do it like that? And what did it do before it did listen. How does this work when it gets to the other end? So I was in secretarial and admin roles, which I swear make me efficient these days. You know, I am my own PA, thankfully. So I’ve had some training, at least in that, but I was always interested in the system and always interested in why do people do the things that they do so working in companies like digital, which is an absolute behemoth in the day of innovation, I had access to Videocon in the 90s work the way it does now, but I had to set that up so seeing the future of possibility, and then I moved into a training role. I was seconded, and somebody offered me that. So I said, Yes, only if you give me some training. I did that. I became qualified. Then I moved into training coordination, getting a lot of European funds, and working with what I think we would still call disadvantaged people in poorer communities. And that was a real eye opener for a fairly certainly not rich, but you know, we never didn’t eat in my household to work with people who had been in a very different background, right? So again, I think that maturity in early 20s of WoW, life really can look different, and not because you’ve made a misstep, but sometimes that’s circumstance. So I guess I was beginning to be perhaps a little bit more appreciative of all that I had still. And then I applied to go and help set up lottery funding to good causes back in 95 okay, so still working with charities in the voluntary sector where I started, but beginning to give grants out. And for 15 years I had, I think, four or five roles from the ops director in Scotland, two directorships and the deputy chief exec, wow. And I really worked hard there on my leadership, and very lucky that that organization supported me to do so. But I realized that 40 in a boardroom one day I’d hit what I now call that, that kind of obsequious, seductive non friend my comfort zone right sitting in a meeting, and I realized I don’t really care what the answer is to this particular policy. We’ve discussed it so often, and I literally decided in that meeting that I was going to leave pretty quickly. What am I going to do? Well, I don’t know. Maybe I’m just this good because my team’s amazing, and they were so I tried a job I’d never done, a sector I’d never been in, and a place I’d never been to, and that took me into local authorities, where I led huge change over the next couple of years. So again, right out my comfort zone at just the time when funding cuts were brought in 28% to come out of that body. So wow, that was big and established trust while cutting huge numbers of jobs, pretty tough burden to bear, but not as tough as the services that we were cutting and the people who needed them. So again, another big dose of reality, of humility and of very, very steep learning curve about how things get done in different sector. Then DBS disclosure and barring service merger, criminal record safeguarding, just at the point where safeguarding scandals have come right onto the agenda. So very politically interesting, and then onr are totally different, again, Nuclear Regulation. So that was me to the age of 50 and five years ago, I stepped down. I still do chair and non exec roles, but these days, really, I spend my time coaching a squiggly career. I think it qualifies, right? Yeah,
Mark McBride-Wright 9:58
definitely, definitely, but I can see. See the the grounding in your earlier years, in your formative years that would have helped you secure that role at the onr. You know the the connection then to accessibility and safety and social justice, social disadvantage, working in the lottery, in, you know, helping give out, give out funding like it’s a real I guess it’s quite rare to find someone that’s worked in voluntary sector, in the third sector, in government, and also then in policy development and corporate because, yeah, primarily,
Adriènne Kelbie 10:41
primarily private sector, you know, big companies, oil and gas, say, utilities, yeah, it may be unusual, and I think that’s actually what’s helped me with it. You know, being able to share my experiences that are diverse, perhaps more diverse than than many, but not all, you know, feeling my way through roles when I don’t know the answer to things, but I’ve really learned to trust what my emotions are telling me about situations, especially in high pressure, where we tend to turn off, you know, our emotional brain actually to lean on. And
Mark McBride-Wright 11:19
there’s, that’s, that is a type of coaching, isn’t it? It’s like intuitional coaching or intuitional leadership. It’s like listening to yourself, isn’t it? It’s like trust in your gut, which, as you say, sometimes we were, for those of us that are quite fact based, we ignore that part because it’s we believe it to be irrational. But actually, there’s some truth in that, isn’t it? And you’ve, you’ve, you’ve been in touch with that. It sounds like each time you’ve made these pivots,
Adriènne Kelbie 11:46
yeah, I think for a lot of people, as you know, as leaders, let’s think about it. What are we actually trained in? Usually, the technical thing in which we’re working, especially if we’re a specialist? Well, I was a journalist, so my training was in leadership. But I can’t think of anything I’ve done, whether it’s Oxford uni, Henley college, you know, some of these really big, you know, Cranfield, who taught people to deal with the emotions that are attached to having responsibility over other people. You know, how often I have a client that comes in and the, you know, really under stress, under tension, and it’s clear that there’s a battle between their emotional intelligence and what they think is the only other intelligence they have, because it’s a lack of alignment emotions. Gonna feel uncomfortable. I’m doing something, but it doesn’t feel right, so I’m just gonna work harder at it. Doesn’t tend to work. Helping people figure out how to tune into that really helps with what I think is the messy work of leadership, which is feelings. Let’s be honest, if we didn’t need emotions in life, what would it look like? We’d have no love, we’d have no care, would have no sadness, certainly wouldn’t have any anger. And all of these emotions play a range in what we do as leaders. Turning them off is like cutting off your two legs and your two arms and expecting to be your full you. I love to help people turn that on in an appropriate way. Yeah,
Mark McBride-Wright 13:11
yeah. So are you getting with the what balance do you have right now then with like, Do you have a number of clients that you take on with your coaching? Is that how you’re architecting your calendar these days, your schedule? Do you have? Do you do a lot of group coaching, or is it one on one with executives like, how are you spending your time these days?
Adriènne Kelbie 13:29
I love that curiosity, and I’m spending my time. My calendar is open to my clients, so I spend my time when they need me and what’s available. And I’m always amazed by what comes through the door. I really am, you know, who’s got something? How did you find me? Usually, LinkedIn or my website, or I heard somebody or, you know, I saw a podcast. I think, Oh, this is exciting. I don’t know anything about this. Tell me more, but it’s interesting. You say that I feel like you’ve been bugging my office, maybe because I have been thinking about doing some group stuff, because one on one, coaching is, is intensive, and it, you know, it’s not for everybody in terms of time and but I’m thinking, yeah, maybe there’s a little group thing, and maybe folks listen to this, yeah, or out there could, could let me know what would be useful. Because my My thing is, is it useful? Is it interesting? And will it make a difference to people? That’s what I that’s what I say yes to. And if it makes those criteria, I am daft enough to say yes nearly all of the time and then figure out how to make it happen.
Mark McBride-Wright 14:37
Yeah, definitely. I’m part of a few communities where, like, the service user, the service I make them sound like robots. They’re not their fellow business owners, where I’m then a customer to their services, and they maybe have, like, multiple layers. There’s the one on one that you can do with them. That’s the big ticket thing. Then there’s the. Lower Level investment, where you join their community, and it’s either a circle network or a WhatsApp group, and that’s where you get the camaraderie with others that are and then there’s sort of like peer to peer learning and coaching that’s facilitated inherently within the conversations that happen in those WhatsApp channels. And then the the service provider usually provides some sort of midpoint thing where you could do a training course or or a cohort style and retreat, you know, and then you’ll get something as an output of it. So I think that’s where I think you would go if you’ve been doing the one to one and 10 stuff with, with, with leaders that I’ve heard I don’t, haven’t really done much coaching myself as someone, but I have heard that that when you’re coaching someone, it can be quite draining on your battery,
Adriènne Kelbie 15:55
sure, because there’s a lot of energy and on both people. You know, it’s a partnership. Really unlike many others, it’s not the same as where your chief executive or your director or whoever your line manager is. If you’re a technically gifted individual going into your first leadership role, it’s a different terrain. Just being even better what you used to do is not going to get you success in the role. And very often, our leaders aren’t equipped, either with the time or indeed, the skill set to help us do that. So I think having the outlet of somebody who’s invested purely in their development, I have no other agenda, can be really helpful. But I agree, you know, perhaps I am in my comfort zone because I love the one to one work. And, of course, I do group work with companies. I’m in companies now, you know, serving if you like their groups, but, yeah, maybe, maybe I’ll get around to doing something which is a bit more in the community. But thanks for that prod. I like
Mark McBride-Wright 16:50
it that’s all happy to brainstorm with you. The one for those that I know that I’ve got to your level that then do do coaching. It, it’s, it’s where you then get the life coaching that comes in as well, isn’t it? It’s not just about the professional. It’s also about the personal. It’s about the balance with partners that they may have or children that they may have, and, you know, maybe even caring upwards for parents, etc. Do you find that that’s the sort of spinning plates that your clients tend to have? It’s not their work self that needs the coaching. It’s actually the holistic side of them and trying to balance everything in their life. It
Adriènne Kelbie 17:37
can be quite different from person to person, you know, and I certainly agree. You know, shifting from CEO and non exec, and you know, certain chair roles to more coaching, I’ve gone back through the learning I am required to be coached and supervised myself as an accredited coach and doing all that. So it helps, you know, bring the balance. I feel that when people come, they might present something, or if the line manager refers them to company, they might present something. And let’s say, you know, I mean, a really common one is I’m struggling to give difficult feedback to people, and or I really am struggling with conflict. I’d rather avoid it, and that’s very common, so we work through it, and I can go, Okay, what we’re doing in the workplace, I’ll get a view of it. But if I start to ask, what’s your belief about conflict? What did your family look like when there was a disagreement or an argument between your parents, or how did you disagree with your siblings? You know, what do you believe will happen genuinely if you give this difficult feedback to someone? And I think that’s where people are able to make connections, right? Oh, yeah. Well, actually, you know, when I was young, I mean, if my dad said it, that was it okay? So when you’re dealing with this older man who you think may be getting something wrong, but you’re afraid to tell him, what do you see there? Oh, yeah. Okay, so the good news is, we’ve got a pattern that you’re brilliant at. We’ve recognized that. We now just need to create a new one, and it feels a bit easier thing. Oh, I’m not an idiot, I’m not a dummy. And I’m not doing something wrong, I just realize I’ve been trained for something different, and that can help people feel good about letting go of this rather than if we focus on the relationship between them and the current line manager, it’s not going to change it. It’s something much more deep rooted,
Mark McBride-Wright 19:36
yeah, like a summation of learned behaviors over time that’s infused how they’re showing up in the world just now. So interested with your you know you’ve got fellowship at a few energy well engineering centered organizations, so just keen to get your. Take on engineering and your time working with engineers, you know, where do you think we are as a profession just now with in terms of the challenges that we face, the leadership that you see from clients, from companies, individuals, even in engineering, what do you think are some of the challenges and obstacles that we’re dealing with, culturally peppering and some diversity and inclusion in there? Like really keen to to get your take on that.
Adriènne Kelbie 20:34
It’s a great question. And as I said, my dad was an engineer, so you know, I’ve sort of been raised with all of the positives about what engineers can achieve in the world. I then went even further and married an engineer as well. So, you know, I’ve got some personal experience as well as work related. As we just said, it’s important to bring these things together, isn’t it? And, you know, I find engineering exciting. I’ll be honest, if somebody had said to me, you could go to university and do engineering, maybe I’d have gone I know. I now think, Ah, I’m not going to do it now, but actually, because what I observe is the ability to change the world. And I think engineering is shifting as a profession because of the technology that’s available, the materials that are available, or what my dad wouldn’t have given to have some of the materials and CAD and 3d printing available to him now that he could only have dreamed of if he was Star Trek, you know, back when he was doing his apprenticeship. So I feel excited about a new breed and a new generation of engineers coming in with pre programmed, open minds about these kind of different opportunities. I think where engineering still has a challenge and needs to do more is in being open minded, recognizing how innovation can happen. I mean, the world is built on engineering innovations, but they tend to have been from brilliant individuals motivated to do so, rather than fully concerted efforts on the part of communities or companies. And when I think of nuclear, for example, where I still do a lot of work, oil and gas to help people shift to really creating innovative cultures, requires the same kind of shift as we need for inclusive cultures. I’m fascinated by the research on this. It is, it is the same leadership behaviors that inculcate both Well, why wouldn’t we? Has got to be the answer. But I think the you know, the challenge now is about making engineering, not more technical, but more human, in order to extrapolate the benefits of the technology that we’ve got. And I’m still frustrated that the training we’re giving to engineers at most levels in their careers, does not include people leadership. I don’t mean process management. I don’t mean safety management. I don’t mean, you know, manage the HR systems. I really mean that confidence to be with your team and your colleagues and your uppers and your stakeholders and have a really meaningful conversation that adds value. And let me ask you, engineering may be different to all the other all the other professions, but how many meetings are a waste of time? Yeah, how many conversations do you walk away from thinking, I think I know what you meant. I don’t know. I think, I’m not sure. I’ll just keep my head down. I’m sure it’ll be fine. Somebody will say something if it’s really bad, won’t they, you know, or I have no idea what the board does around here. Who knows what that change is all about? You know, and being better engineers is important. But it’s not the whole story, we need to thank the leaders to allow the better engineers to change the world.
Mark McBride-Wright 24:05
Yeah, I am so happy to hear you say that, because on that’s the way I felt, being a safety engineer, but also being quite an extroverted, personable engineer as well, and not too much on the technical, technical in with the numbers, you know, and then in setting up and doing what I’ve done in diversity, seeing like that big chasm, that big gap in capability To be an effective people leader. Because usually people have gotten to engineers have gotten to where they’re at based on their technical acumen, of course, but then you know as to your point, they’ve not had the people leadership development. So then we’re surprised when we’ve got about a profession. Of leaders that are low on the EQ side of things, you know? And I think that’s the rebalance that’s needed. And so, you know, the little dip in the ocean that we’re impact we’re trying to make is the safe leader training course that we’ve devised on the back of of my book, where the framework safe stands for share, act, feel, empower, and it’s trying to encourage engineers to do that deep, self introspective reflection on what’s their story, what can they or they share with others? And then, by doing so, it creates more stories out in the world where there’s a higher probability of interpersonal connection with a story that resonates with you. And if we get more men doing that that don’t often do that and start being vulnerable, we’ll start to create more human, centered leadership. But my challenge is, like, that’s the big, bold ambition. You know? Where do you start? Where? Where do you go in at you know, I’m like, do I? Do I target like managing directors first? We’ve got a really good relationship with a construction company ongoing now that we’re starting to sort of seep into but then I’m also a visiting professor at UCL, and I’m thinking, well, let’s, let’s expedite the rate of uptake. Create a feed forward loop here by trying to then get this training into or a version of it into the curriculum for the first, second, third, fourth years, so that when they’re coming off the education conveyor belt and over the next decade and coming into industry, they’ve got a better grounding point.
Adriènne Kelbie 26:42
I think the answer is, you do what you can. From a capacity perspective, there are enough of us, I think, available to the sectors to support helping them understand the value of it. And I don’t mean the price I keep getting this safety is expensive. Try an accident. We all know that. But I think, well, what is the cost of poor leadership? Yeah, not even in turnover. Because, you know, at the moment, the market’s difficult. Not that many people are going to voluntarily leave a job because they don’t like the climate. But they will silently down tools. They will silently, you know, have a, as we call it in Scotland, a dirty protest. You’re available, but you’re just not, you know, speaking up and shifting it. And I think that is the silent killer of innovation, where people are just quietly giving up. They’re not destructive, they’re not difficult, they’re just not engaged. And I think the price and the costs of poorly engaged teams, teams that fail to have meaningful conversations, teams that have lots of meetings that don’t go anywhere. And you know, you really notice that the cost of that, but it doesn’t show up in a budget line. Yeah, doesn’t show up in the bottom line. Nobody that I know of, if anybody’s listening and has it, let me know. But I’ve never seen a set of management accounts that has somebody holding complete waste of time budget line. Yeah, even if we had one of them, we’d start seeing the cost of not implementing these kinds of work, these kinds of programs with people personally. Your question, where do we go in? We go in with the willing, because that’s what is needed to create some form of tipping point. And actually, there are enough companies who are doing this where we can see the results. We have got the case studies. You know, the ROI in coaching is 70% plus. Oh, wow, one to one coaching. That’s why I tend to invest in it, because I know and I’m pretty confident that my own stats are, you know, beyond even that. But it’s because when people show up, they’re already predisposed to put the time and the effort in. And that’s where I think we need to get companies that really back this, not just the HR team, but the chief execs, the MDS, the chief execs like me who would have this on the board table saying, you know, culture is king, right here. How do we help people behave in ways that create fast paced, agile, accurate, safe cultures? Because let’s not forget, a lot of us are in nuclear, you know, oil and gas, these are high hazard, highly regulated industries. So another resistance point I get is, yeah, but you know, but what’s most important in here is safety. Yeah, yes, it is. And psychological safety is part of that. Yeah, huge thanks to Amy Edmondson for putting a name on something I didn’t know it was called 20 years ago, yeah, this sense of, if you have teams who speak up, not just can speak up, not just are told to speak up, yeah, but actually speak up, then your chance that safety and reliability, yeah, exponentially improve, that requires us to lean into conflict. Act. It requires us to lean into the fear of upsetting somebody or hurting their feelings or maybe being wrong. And those are human skills. Those are the things that we have to let people do. I
Mark McBride-Wright 30:11
like your point that you said a moment ago about there are enough of us at the moment to make it happen. I think what’s lacking is the coordination, or the centralized vision, and then translating that through into then the action. And I guess that’s what I’m trying to do, actually, that is fundamentally what I’m trying to do with the safe leader, with eco engineers, being a safety engineer by background, and a fledgling dei practitioner. And I wonder, and I still believe, actually, even in the world that we’re in now, with things going more to the right in some countries, that by that alignment with safety, certainly for engineering, it means the uptake is going to be more successful. I think you’re speaking to engineers in the language that the that they understand?
Adriènne Kelbie 31:02
Yeah, I mean, if you go to a foreign land, you can’t speak in your own language, you know. Well, you can, you can, but it’s not necessarily as effective. What do companies want, you know, do they want a description of a process? No, they want. They want a belief there’s no such thing in, you know, in leadership development as a guarantee, but they want a belief that the chance of a return on their investment is good. Yeah, I’m pretty confident that, you know, I can make that. In fact, I’m entirely confident I can make that case, so long as they put the work in. And that’s the, you know, that can be the factor, the chemistry between people, the alignment between ways of working, but you need to bring in, if you want change, you need to bring in somebody who’s different. Yes, that’s, I think, where there’s a sympathy and an empathy and an alignment overall to the world of engineering, but enough difference to notice where it’s problematic. Yeah. And, you know, having, I think having that in the toolkit can help. And let me put, you know, let me put a hard frame on Dei. You, you know, you loosely. I think they are alluded to American shift in government policy. And I’ll say some that might surprise you. I don’t entirely disagree. I think that some of what’s been done in the name of dei has been vanity projects, yes, in some ways, political projects, and they’ve been around since I was dishing out lottery money in the 90s. And I think the problem can be that people who aren’t fully queuing into the agenda see those things. It’s a bit like reading the tabloids and thinking, you’ve read the news, they see those things, and they believe that is what dei is about, yes and and it’s not so. I understand the frustration that not just a president will have, but some perfectly rational, good, decent human beings will have with what they’ve seen as dei Yes. But I think when we step back from that and say, imagine an organization or a community or a country where everybody played their part, yeah, where the skill set was enough that we could respect difference and actually make something of it, yeah, where we could figure out that somebody away over there could solve my problem, away in here, because they Have the distance to look at it, and I have been sitting sweating over the last eight weeks, three years, 10 years, delete as applicable and that you know, positively targeted. Dei work is actually about helping companies get competitive advantage and helping communities work in ways that are safer and better for everyone, not the minorities, but for everyone. Yeah, that’s what I wish I could get over. So maybe slightly provocative. I hope some of this isn’t taken out of context in a short sound bite, but, but we need to, we need to recognize the fact that it’s been in some ways misused and abused, and that’s given, perhaps the whole thing a bad name that’s unclear.
Mark McBride-Wright 34:04
It’s definitely in the what, what, what this shift in everything has led to is the introspection of the diversity practitioner community to think, where did we go wrong? Where, where were we not framing the discussion argument correctly, you know, and I now realize in retrospect, pre George Floyd that in 2018 when I then shifted from running a LGBT organization to then setting up a company to focus on multiple diversity strands, I could sense it coming. I could sense the the not the pushback, but the lack of connection. To the overall message from the engineering leaders, etc, that I would meet. And then when I pivoted discovering the suicide rates in engineering and construction, and then thought, well, hang on, this is ironic. Inclusion is all about bringing your whole self to work, this can then land better for the white, straight male engineer that represents 84% of the engineering profession. We need to talk about dei through this lens to make them feel engaged and included. That’s where things have gone wrong, because a lot of people have felt vilified or accused, and then it’s the villagers with the pitchforks that have come at them, and what you then see is this reactionary pushback and the the in the pursuit of trying to find your community as if you’re underrepresented. For every action, there’s a reaction, and then when you find that community, so in the pursuit of inclusion, ironically, it can become exclusive, because you then find your group. But what we’ve not, what we weren’t considering, was then the Ricochet impact on the other group, on the others, you know, and I think we’re getting a realignment, a recentering on, on all of that. That’s what, that’s my take anyway, on, on what I see playing out now,
Adriènne Kelbie 36:31
yeah, I’d agree. You know, we’re all in a tribe. We we identify an in group and an out group, yeah, and, and nobody can be in every group. We’re not. And I mean by that, I’m not very so not sporty. It’s unbelievable. My husband and his kids and their family are, like, sporty. Really? Sports rugby. They play rugby. They watch the rugby. Yeah, that’s not me. And I’m like, I don’t even know what sports on. Sometimes I’m not in that group, but it doesn’t mean I’m out of the group. Yeah, you know, I think there’s a there’s a paradox here between diversity and inclusion. Actually, sometimes being diverse doesn’t mean you need to accommodate everything at one I, you know, have a lot of experience with neurodivergent individuals. I’m a qualified neurodivergent coach, because, you know, when I started to grapple with this, I didn’t realize my own differences, let alone how to work with other people. Again, engineering is one of the most neurodiverse sectors on the planet. What skills have you ever been given as an engineer to work in a neurodiverse community? Imagine if we actually yes, imagine if you knew what to do with that. But there’s this thing about, you know, groups and identities need to work together, yeah, and, you know, I’ve noticed when, when I start coaching teams for corporates, I will work with feedback, and the feedback often categorizes them and us, yeah? Them on the third floor, them in Germany, them in engineering. You know that there’s however you categorize them. There’s 100 ways, but the language is one of division. And when I noticed that I’m interested, because that’s kind of a telling the belief that they are they and therefore not on us, yeah, saw that in onr a lot. You know, where are we? We need to be on us. The baddies are outside, not inside. But it takes a lot of emotional intelligence to deal that. So again, going to feedback. One of the things I mean, my most popular guide on my website it’s the trust equation. It’s free, by the way, so check it out. But when I’m working on what creates trust, and therefore how to address feedback, that has been, shall we say, simmering gently to the point of being stinky, horrible stuff in the back kitchen, instead of a beautiful, you know, smell and aroma when feedback is coming, actually the rotting carcass of feedback that should have been given many years ago leads to division, yeah, and I think that’s what happened, as you say, you know, in some part in de and I yeah, that feedback that should have been given wasn’t because people were afraid of the backlash, and therefore it simmered gently until it exploded. And I really hope, I hope that as individuals, we understand we’ve got a lot more power than that. We don’t need corporates, we don’t need communities, we don’t need politicians to address that we we can actually do that ourselves with a little bit of helping the how? An interesting point, not one I thought we’d be discussing today. So thank you for the tour
Mark McBride-Wright 39:46
that’s we’re having a very organic conversation. I love this. So thinking ahead to the future, then what? How do you envisage the next? You know, few. Is playing out for you? What? And looking further back in well, going further forward in the future and looking back, what legacy do you hope to leave with your leadership, advocacy and coaching work?
Adriènne Kelbie 40:13
It’s a really good question, and one we should probably all think a bit more often about. You know, my mantra is, you know, about being helpful and getting people out of their comfort zones, helping them grow. And I think when I turned 50, I was lucky that lots of people sent lovely birthday messages, and a lot of them are from people that I hadn’t heard from for quite a while. I think LinkedIn must spew your birthday out in some algorithm. You’re basically outed whether you want it or not. But it actually made me feel quite emotional to say that people remembered me in perhaps a more positive light than I might have, especially coming up through the ranks. So really, I want to leave a legacy of people who care. Want to leave a legacy of organizations that deliver exceptional results whilst getting exceptional results from their people, but in ways that don’t have the collateral damage, in ways that actually develop people and give them career choices. So when they choose to stay, it’s because they want to, not because they have to. Yes, that for me, has always felt very important. As a chief exec, I wanted to equip everybody to the degree that they could leave if they wanted, but chose to stay. And I think now as a coach, I want to equip everybody with the skills to be the kind of leader everybody else wants wants to work around
Mark McBride-Wright 41:41
that’s good advice. That’s good advice. Okay, quick fire questions. Are you ready?
Adriènne Kelbie 41:49
Brian, never ready. Okay,
Mark McBride-Wright 41:51
okay, what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?
Adriènne Kelbie 42:00
I’ve had so much advice, and most of it’s been pretty blinking good. I’ve got to go back to my dad, get back on that horse, or stop whining. That’s another story I started as a show jumper. We don’t have time for that.
Mark McBride-Wright 42:13
What’s your proudest professional moment?
Adriènne Kelbie 42:20
I think leading everybody through COVID safely and well and still keeping the wheels turning. I’m really proud of how we dealt with COVID and onr.
Mark McBride-Wright 42:29
What’s one skill every leader should have kindness.
Adriènne Kelbie 42:32
I’m sorry it’s probably not a skill, but I’m going to call it a
Mark McBride-Wright 42:36
skill, a value, yeah, tea or coffee? Oh, tea.
Adriènne Kelbie 42:40
I’ve never had coffee in my life. I’m sure it’s bad for me. Imagine me on coffee.
Mark McBride-Wright 42:50
What’s your go to coaching question?
Adriènne Kelbie 42:58
What’s the feeling behind that?
Mark McBride-Wright 43:02
If you could have dinner with any leader or thinker, past or present? Who would it be?
Adriènne Kelbie 43:11
I don’t know, because I’m really looking forward to having dinner with my mum in a few weeks, because I don’t live near her. I wouldn’t say she’s a leader or a thinker, but she’s one of the loveliest people on the planet. So I’m going to go with my mum.
Mark McBride-Wright 43:23
What’s the one thing you do to unwind?
Adriènne Kelbie 43:27
Well, I’m very fortunate. I live in a warm climate, so getting some sun with a cup of tea or an occasional cocktail. Big thing where I’m completely switched off is when I scuba dive, seeing the fish and the reefs and whatever is out there, it’s impossible to be thinking about your email or your client’s problem, and clearly there is no phone notification at 30 feet. So I’m very happy when I go scuba diving.
Mark McBride-Wright 43:55
What’s the most exciting conversation you’ve had recently?
Adriènne Kelbie 43:59
Ah, tons. And honestly, aren’t conversations with people who want to develop exciting it’s my kind of purpose in life. And, well, I think I can say it out loud because it because it’s gone live today, I’ve been having some very exciting conversations with Atkins realis, one of their teams, and we’ve just gone into contract. Oh, great. So I’m quite excited about that. Congratulate, yeah, I’m always excited about the opportunity to work with folks. Fabulous.
Mark McBride-Wright 44:28
What’s one book or resource that shaped your view on leadership?
Adriènne Kelbie 44:33
Oh, have I got it here? I think it’s in my other bookcase. Simon Lancaster, any of his books, frankly, language of leadership. He’s a number one Ted talker. Look him up. Okay, Simon Lancaster, language of leadership changed the game for me. I read it at 39 I think, in fact, I mentioned in it I was he was still quite new. And I think. Did a review of the of the draft copy, but he’s an awesome speech writer, an amazing connector. So yeah, Simon’s book, Fantastic.
Mark McBride-Wright 45:09
Okay, I’ll look him up. What advice? And finally, what advice would you give your younger self, fresh into leadership,
Adriènne Kelbie 45:17
be a little kinder to yourself. I was a bit brutal. I was slightly brutal to some people as well. I apologize. I have apologized to them all, but I’ll do it again on this. But actually, I was pretty brutal with myself, and I think I made I think I got in my own way, rather than anybody else. So I suspect I’m not the only one. I wouldn’t do well, you’re a bit kinder. So again, there’s another little one. I actually created a guide, inner critic versus inner coach, because I see this come up in a lot of people. I’m working with this unkindness to oneself. So help people channel that now, so not just me. I know I’m not alone in that
Mark McBride-Wright 46:02
fabulous well. Thank you very much. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. If our listeners want to get in touch with you, want to find out more about what you offer, sounds like you’ve got a little library resources that you make available in some place. Like, how do people find this? Well,
Adriènne Kelbie 46:21
I am. I’ve never been a woman of mystery. So my brand is really simple. It’s Adrian kelby.com you can look me up on LinkedIn under my not assumed name of Adrian Kelby, or I’m kind of more active there, but my website, you’re right. It does have some free, free resources, because the most popular ones on there, really, for people, because I don’t think, I think people can get the basics from that even without spending a penny. So I hope some folks very useful. Feedback is always welcome,
Mark McBride-Wright 46:53
fantastic. And hopefully some people will be coming your way for some coaching advice or joining a future group coaching.
Adriènne Kelbie 47:02
Oh yeah, dig it in. You realize I’m gonna have to commit to that now, right? Okay, I’m gonna do it
Mark McBride-Wright 47:09
sounds like you’ve got enough business coming through with your corporates these contracts you’re landing. So capacity, it’s capacity, and so you want to make sure you’ve got time to do that scuba diving.
Adriènne Kelbie 47:23
Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Mark McBride-Wright 47:27
Have the cocktails. Brilliant. Thanks so much. Adrian, thank you. It’s
Adriènne Kelbie 47:32
been my pleasure, and I hope everybody continues to be a safe
Mark McBride-Wright 47:35
leader. Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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