What does it really take to lead with strength and humanity? In this episode of The SAFE Leader Podcast, Mark McBride-Wright is joined by Urs Koenig, UN and NATO peacekeeper, ultra-endurance athlete, executive coach, and bestselling author of Radical Humility. Urs shares his powerful philosophy of being tough on results and tender on people, drawing on deeply personal stories from the battlefield, the boardroom, and the racecourse. With raw honesty and hard-won wisdom, he unpacks why humility is not weakness but a competitive edge, and how psychological safety, vulnerability, and meaningful feedback are the true markers of bold leadership.
From rejoining the military after 22 years to racing 3000 miles across America, Urs reflects on the leadership lessons that shaped his approach to high-stakes environments. He challenges common misconceptions about humility, explores the emotional power of sharing stories, and lays out practical tools for building trust and empowering teams. Whether you’re leading a company, a team, or just yourself, this conversation is a must-listen for anyone who wants to lead with courage, clarity and compassion.
Read the Transcript
Mark McBride-Wright 0:00
Hello. Welcome to the next episode of the safe leader podcast. I’m your host, Mark McBride Wright, today I’m joined with URS Koenig, who is the best selling author of radical humility. So urs is an internationally renowned keynote speaker, Best Selling Author of radical humility. Be a badass leader and a good human and the founder of the radical humility Leadership Institute, with a career that spans UN and NATO peacekeeping missions, ultra endurance sports, academia and executive coaching, Uros brings a rare blend of resilience research and realism to his message of human centered leadership. He has worked with leaders at world class organizations such as Amazon, Starbucks, Microsoft and the Society for Human Resource Management, helping them navigate complex challenges while fostering high performing, psychologically safe teams. His signature framework, radical humility, offers practical research backed tools for today’s leaders to be tough on results and tender on people. Urs has also served as an executive coach at the Honor Foundation, helping us Special Operations Forces transition to corporate life. He is a passionate advocate for developing leaders who are bold, empathetic and grounded worse. Welcome.
Urs Koenig 1:27
Thank you so much for having me, Mark. I look forward to our conversation. Yeah,
Mark McBride-Wright 1:31
me too. I am just rereading your bio there and reading out I remember the first time I came across you on LinkedIn and the diversity of the buckets that you fit into, in terms of, I think you were like running some Iron Man or some sort of you know thing that I’ll probably never do in my life, you know, physical prowess, sort of endurance thing, and then, and then all those other, all those other layers to you, it’s quite a it’s quite a broad, broad set of experience. You know, wearing many hats, being a peacekeeper, an endurance athlete, a professor, a coach. You know what? What brought you to all this? It’s so it’s so varied. Well.
Urs Koenig 2:21
Thank you. I take this as a compliment. It is a rather eccentric career that I have indeed. Yeah, look, I think I mean, in a nutshell, I’ve always been really into leadership, so that’s sort of the one constant aspect through all of my different jobs and and positions I’ve held. But honestly, I think at the at the heart of it, I’m a bit of a restless soul, so I really try to assess, every three to five years where I’m at in my career, and then look at, you know, what else might I want to experience? What else might I want to do? That fills my pocket, that keeps me energized, that keeps me learning. And so that’s how I jumped around. You know, we I’m sure we’ll talk a bit more about the peacekeeping, but I actually rejoined the military after having been out for 22 years for my peacekeeping mission, my first one in Kosovo. So, so that was a trip, as you can imagine, after having been out for that long. But really it’s my hunger for life, for learning, for new experiences, that drives me
Mark McBride-Wright 3:30
so tell us about your time then, as a UN and NATO Peacekeeper, how did those high pressure environments inform your understanding of power, humility and safety in particular.
Urs Koenig 3:43
Look, that’s that’s a great question, and people are often surprised how I answer it. So we think of the military as very top down command control. Do as I say, because I tell you so and sure that happens. There’s no question about it. But I actually found in my peacekeeping missions that the best commanders, the best leaders, are those who display great humility, build meaningful relationships with the people and make it safe. I know that’s an important topic in your work. Make it safe for their team members to speak up, and you mentioned one of my signature sort of phrases in the intro, tough on results. Tendron people, I will never forget my commanding officer in the Balkans in Kosovo. He sat me he called me to his office, my colonel, my boss, he sat me down, and he said, Urs, you know I love you. I do, and your work is not even close to being good enough. So that’s tough, fun, results, tendron people. I’ve worked with the guy for nine months at that point, so he wasn’t just saying he loved me. I knew he really meant it. He took a keen interest in me as a person, not just as one of his captains who was leading a team. He knew about my family, my plans after the mission. And so he really was tender on people by getting to know me, by caring about me on a personal level, and that then gave him license to be tough on results and say what I delivered, whatever it was like three days earlier, was not even close to being good enough. So it’s interesting to think about this. If he would have yelled at me, you know, chewed me out what we sort of think stereotypically happens in the military. Yeah, I would have tuned him out. I would have gone whatever, you know. But because he said, I love you, and I know he meant it, I was really able to hear his feedback. Yeah, and so that’s one example of how I experienced safety as part of my peacekeeping mission. Another example, this was my second mission in the Middle East. My commanding officer opened an after action review with these words. She said, I screwed that up, and I know it. And here is what I’m gonna do. Here’s what I’m going to do, so it will never happen again. Her ability to go first, then made it safe, coming back to safety for all of us, her teammates, to do the same own what we did well and what we need to do better, all because she went first. All because she had the humility and the courage to go first, model the behavior she wanted us to display, and made it safe for everybody to share, their own mess ups. So that’s just two examples of my peacekeeping missions. It’s
Mark McBride-Wright 6:24
also, you know, I’ve seen a lot of stuff recently come out about how, like just clarifying what psychological safety is, and the fact that it’s not about just making it easy or have an easy pass or avoiding conflict, you know. And in that example of your first example of the military leader, where they could have chewed you up, as you say, and you would have shut down, they also could have to have avoided conflict. And I’m not sure this would really happen in a military setting, but it might in other softer settings, you know, to just keep the peace, and you just don’t actually give the feedback of what you’re really thinking. And so because, because you, because you avoid conflict, you know, so, so no one’s really winning. Then in that world, you’re holding back. You’re not saying what you really think. You’re not giving the member of your team the opportunity to develop because you want to avoid conflict.
Urs Koenig 7:25
And by the way, the conflict avoidance happens also in the military. Let’s be crystal clear. It happens, you and I know like it happens across all organizations, all teams, and you’re absolutely right. You know, psychological safety is an important part of what I call leading with radical humility, and it is such a misunderstood notion. Even Professor Amy Evanson, who coined the phrase she even to this day, has to push back. It’s not about being nice, it’s not about being cozy. It’s not about being kind, necessarily, and it’s most definitely not about lowering performance stands. It’s exactly what you’re saying, speaking truth to power, direct feedback, both giving it and as a leader, being able to receive it. So that’s where it’s at. It’s not at all about avoiding but it’s talking about the real stuff that really matters.
Mark McBride-Wright 8:17
So how so? So in one of these three to five year resets that you self impose, when? How did the endurance sports side of things come into it?
Urs Koenig 8:32
Well, that is actually it. That’s been one of the constants in my life mark. I grew up in a very athletic family. My dad was Uber athletic. In fact, my sister, I have two younger sisters. My middle sister has been a professional athlete for 20 plus years, very, very successful. And so from a very young age, I was drawn to sort of long, adventurous things. I think I ran my first marathon at 16. I did 100 kilometer run at 19 and and throughout my whole life. And then I got into the cross country skiing, triathlons, and later on, what’s called Ultra cycling, which is bike races ranging in length from from 200 to 3000 miles. So that has actually been one of the constants in my life. And you know, I’m have some ailing issues in my body now at age 58 so I have to be careful, but I can still still do stuff. Last summer, I did a what’s called an Everest thing in the Swiss Alps, so hiked the equivalent of Mount Everest up and then rode the bike, or took the gondola down 8848 meters. And I love this stuff. It’s pure it, by the way. I mean, we can talk about that, but it auto endurance competition, or, for that matter, any athletic endeavors. It really teaches you to lose. It teaches me to fail. It teaches me, how do I come back from a huge disappointment, from a race I didn’t finish or I messed up, and come back stronger the next year? So, you know, I move my body every day to this day, at least half an hour every day of something, but the ultra endurance stuff really has been one of the constants in my life, so that I don’t need to reassess every three years. That’s just something that’s
Mark McBride-Wright 10:13
a constant. That’s right, it’s a, it’s a, it’s something that I imagine when you do work with leadership teams. You know, sports, something at any level of depth, exercise. It’s something everyone has a connection to, whether we’re actively doing it or not. We know we should be. But does it? Does it help you build camaraderie with, with, you know, people, when you’re when you’re taking them on a, on a training course, or a or a coaching experience, that sort of shared interest in sport,
Urs Koenig 10:49
you know, so I don’t do sort of outdoor adventure things with my clients. And there’s people who do this very well that I was
Mark McBride-Wright 10:56
meaning, I was meaning more like, so, so a lot of people that, like in engineering, you know, there’s a there’s it’s quite a heavily male majority profession, and so when you’re doing like leadership stuff in high testosterone environments, I often find relating to sport can help melt the ice with groups, so to speak, in the analogies that you can pull from, I must admit, it’s not something that often works with myself, because I’m I do what I need to do to keep fit and be healthy, but I’m not like a heavy on the sports sort of front. So it kind of falls short with me sometimes, like the sport analogies and the sport idioms. But I guess I’m stereotyping here, thinking, Do you feel it helps you connect with with people when you’re training. You
Urs Koenig 11:43
know, no question, no question. So Mark, yeah, you’re absolutely correct. So because of the the ultra endurance stuff being, you know, you can argue it’s sort of a very macho, driven environment. It’s literally last man or woman standing like whoever can last the longest, first day, first night, second day, 72 hours, 96 hours. So because of that background, and I talk very openly about, you know, the stuff that I’ve learned both from my successes and failures as an ultra endurance athlete, and you’re so right on that, combined with my peacekeeping work, gives me quite a bit of credibility. And you refer to the, you know, type A, mainly guys testosterone feel like. And then, because I have that background, in fact, you know, that’s in all humility, maybe one of the superpowers I have, then I can actually relate to them. And then I can go to places like the value of vulnerability, yeah, the value of opening up about your feelings and not just your thoughts. That’s from the neck up, but from the neck down. And because, again, all the humility I can master here, because of my background, I’m able to bring that message, and the message is then heard much, maybe better than if it came from somebody who doesn’t have that background. So you’re absolutely right. It’s something that helps me relate and people connect to I have in one of my keynotes, I extensively talked about, or talk about, the near death experience I had during the race across America, a 3000 mile non stop transcontinental bike race. And that story really resonates with a lot of people, mainly guys, no question about it.
Mark McBride-Wright 13:28
So tell us about your definition, then, of radical humility. What is it?
Urs Koenig 13:32
So radical humility has sort of three legs to the stool. The first one is deep self awareness, and that’s what people think of when they think of humility. I see myself accurately, and by the way, not too low, not too high, not too arrogant, not too modest or too humble. So an accurate view of myself, which, as you and I know, is a part of a lot of leadership development, yes, reducing those blind spots. So that’s number one, the second and really the core. If I had to pick one core element of leading with radical humility, it’s a relational approach to leadership. It’s leading by building collaborative and meaningful relationships, versus simply leading by content expertise. That’s both on an individual level, one on one, we talked about tough and results, 10 wrong people and the team and organization wide level, we talked about psychological safety. So that’s the relational piece. And then the third piece is, you know what we call the growth mindset, right? So seeing mistakes, failures and setbacks, both on an individual level, but also on a team and organization wide level, as an opportunity for learning and growing versus something to be ashamed of, or worse, even sweep under the carpet. So self awareness leading relationally and then the growth mindset, those are the three legs to the stool. Yeah.
Mark McBride-Wright 15:00
So you mentioned you’re a keynote speaker as well. There. What’s the one leadership message? Then, from becoming radically, radically, what is the verb of humility? Actually humble? It’s from the word humble. Yeah, of course. So what’s the one leadership message you hope people walk away with after hearing you speak,
Urs Koenig 15:26
humility is not being weak or meek. It’s in fact, in fact a necessary superpower in order to lead to win in today’s world. So I’m not advocating for humble leadership, because it’s the right thing to do, and I believe it is. It is the right thing to do, to see myself accurately, to build meaningful relationships with my teammates, but it’s actually a prerequisite to winning in today’s complex world. So if they take that away that it’s a superpower versus something that’s weak or sort of meek. So that that’s my message.
Mark McBride-Wright 16:02
It’s I maybe there’s I mean, you can go down the route of stereotypes here. I wonder if there’s something about the different different cultures, different different nationalities and what were, what were usually like, you know, as a majority group, you know, I find since moving to the USA, you know, just Americans in general are more they like talking about achievements, that the growth mindset almost seems much more in the culture here, when compared to, say, in the British culture, where a lot More we don’t really talk about our achievements much in the UK, you know, it can feel like bragging. It can feel like maybe too far into the, you know, the other side of being humble. You know, almost arrogant. You know, the arrogant side. It can be perceived. So I guess there’s, do you find there’s a scale of what’s too arrogant and too humble that varies by different geographies or different companies, even not just geographies different organizations, like the tolerance of what’s accepted in the range
Urs Koenig 17:12
Absolutely I mean, and this sort of plays into the situational leadership approach. So we need to adapt according to the culture we’re in, as you correctly point out, both organizationally, but also the culture of the country or the region I work and live in. So you know, I served in the Middle East, Lebanon, Egypt. I served in the Balkans, and I will never forget, by the way, so this is a funny little anecdote about the cultural differences in in the Balkans, I had to give my interpreters, my language specialists, a performance review, and like any good boss, I had them in, there’s a form I needed to use, because that’s the form that the Armed Forces told me to use. I gave the form to the interpreters and said, Please, self assess you, self as self as you self assess and I assess yourself. And then we have a conversation together on, you know what you might be, what you might be able, what you might need to improve, and what you’re doing. Well, without exception, all four of my interpreters assess themselves on every single bucket as five out of five. They they itself, is it? And so I went, like, seriously, like, you think you’re perfect in everything? And it was almost, it wasn’t all it was very funny. So we had and then they said, Look, in our culture, why would I admit to my boss that I have a gap, that I’m not not that great at something. Why would I do that? That’s just not what we do in our culture. And so it was a real eye opener for me to then go, and then we had a good laugh about it, and then we’re able to talk about it, and and then, you know, there were much more shades of gray after our conversation, but that’s one example right of of cultural differences. So absolutely, there’s huge differences. And as you correctly point out, even in, you know, I’ve lived in the States for now 24 years, within companies, even within teams like every as you know, every team has its own culture. Yes, even the same company, and it might be a bit more humble, or it might be a bit
Mark McBride-Wright 19:18
more arrogant, and that that, you know, with with the safe leader model that I developed in my work, it’s, it’s a simple wheel where safe stands for, share, act, feel, empower, and it’s very much trying to encourage leaders to understand what their difference is. Firstly, what’s their story? What’s if they were to be open about something, it would then put more stories out into the world where people can acquire learned experience. You know, there’s lived experience and learned experience, and because men aren’t often very good at being vulnerable and open up about those things beneath. The neck down and opening up about what’s causing emotion and with their heart and with their core, there’s less stories around for people to learn and to relate to, you know, and learn from. So I’d love to, like, work the safe leader model with you just now. It’s a it’s a new thing I want to start doing in the podcast. So you’re the first guest that I’m really going deep with this on. So
Urs Koenig 20:26
Mark, right.
Mark McBride-Wright 20:30
So if we start with share, how do you share stories, either your own or others to foster connection and trust with the people that you coach or lead.
Urs Koenig 20:42
Look, I think that what I do personally and what I help people do, is to actually share some of your own more vulnerable stories to build trust. And you pointed that out earlier, a lot of people, mainly males, really struggle with this concept of opening up like my interpreters in Kosovo did, being vulnerable, or admitting that I’m not perfect. So if there is resistance, I do two things. I quote the research, and there’s plenty of research showing that vulnerability, appropriate vulnerability, is actually the quickest way to build trust and vulnerability. Might simply be I share with you something I’m working on, a goal I have. It demonstrates to you that I’m too I’m working progress and always strive to get better. So and then there’s, you know, I quote the research study in the book, if I might quickly do a quick digression, and I come back to your question, where pairs of complete strangers are brought into a lab, they’ve never met each other, and they were then tasked with asking and answering meaningful personal questions, not small talk, but things like, what does love and friendship mean to you? Or, if you only had 12 months to live, what would you change? By the way, that’s a great question for all of us to ask. Occasionally, at the end of those 45 minutes, participants were asked to rate the level of trust that developed with a partner. 45 minutes, they rated the level of trust about as high as the level of trust they have with the average person in their lives. Some even rated as high as the level of trust they have with their with their significant other, and one pair. I love this, even got married but but the point is that the research is crystal clear. Sharing with appropriate vulnerability, sharing a goal, maybe something you’re working on, something you’re not quite sure about, a mistake you’ve made in the past, in your career. You know this is safe to talk about that, because it happened in the past, and you can talk to people what you learned, what you messed up, what you messed up, and what you learned from your mess up. Like that is an incredibly powerful way to share, build your trust, and demonstrate to your team members that actually sharing your stories, sharing with the vulnerability is an incredible, incredibly powerful way to build trust. And you know, one last thing on this. This is Brene Brown, of course, the queen of vulnerability, who says vulnerability is the last thing I want to show you, but it’s the first thing I look for in you. And if honest, if we peel back the layers a little bit like that is so true for all of us. When you share something personal with me, Mark, I immediately, on an emotional level, feel more connected. So that’s how I think about the s or share of your framework. Oh,
Mark McBride-Wright 23:32
I love that. Oh, I like this. Thank you. And so moving on to act. Can you share a bold decision that you made, personally or professionally that help the team or organization shift toward a more inclusive or psychologically safe culture.
Urs Koenig 23:50
So I so this might be a bit counter intuitive, but this was during my peacekeeping mission in Kosovo. Towards the end of the mission, everybody’s tired, the team just wants to go home, and there was a lot of bickering going on, people talking behind each other’s back and not really doing the job, and a lot of gossip. So not a good not a good situation. And we literally had like a week left, so I did a bold move, which could have backfired. I ordered everybody on a day off at 1400 hours into our tactical operations center for a meeting in uniform, even there was a day off. And I laid out my observation of what I see going on in a team. You’re bickering, you’re sort of, you know, not exactly, throwing obstacles in each other’s ways, but almost, and that’s unacceptable. And I raised my voice. I think I have a section in the book where I write about how to raise your voice. I wasn’t yelling at them, but I raised my voice, and then I gave a direct order. I told them all that they have two hours and spend 10 minutes with each other. Every team member spends 10 minutes. With every other team member, including me. And during those 10 minutes, direct order, you air all the grievances you have with that person, all the grievances, and after that, we’re done. You have the night off tomorrow morning, 07, 100. We start as one team. Now, to be clear, this is not something you do when you have a brand new team. I’ve worked with these people. We laughed, we cried together. They knew me and they, you know, I never yelled at them, but that’s the one time I did and because it was the one time the message landed. Did they like doing it? No, they didn’t. Did it work? It absolutely did. So after that, you know, they weren’t perfect, but much better, like a real turnaround. So that was a bit bold. And you know what, not what I think or what people think as sort of safe or humble leadership, but because we had a track record together, I knew I could come in strong and bold and turn the ship around.
Mark McBride-Wright 25:56
Interesting. I do wonder HR managers or directors in an organization might
Urs Koenig 26:03
they might have an issue with that. Might have an issue with that approach. Yes, yes. Sometimes, sometimes you gotta just ask for forgiveness versus for permission. Yeah, that was my approach here. Yeah,
Mark McBride-Wright 26:18
true. Hey. So with, feel, share, act, feel. How do you stay emotionally attuned in high performance settings, especially when outcomes and key performance indicators and performance and everything are front of mind. How do you stay emotionally connected?
Urs Koenig 26:37
Do you mean emotionally connected to my people or to myself? Or what do you mean,
Mark McBride-Wright 26:41
in all, in all, in all, and always, and always.
Urs Koenig 26:46
So for me personally, that actually comes easy, and it’s actually, it’s a strength I have, which also can become a weakness. I to a fault, am in tune with what’s going on with my team members, on a on a sort of, you know, emotional level, so, and which also means, and that’s a weakness, I sometimes carry that emotional burden with me, so I almost feel too, too strongly. But I think, um, for others who might not be wired the same way, it’s important throughout high pressure situations when you know the famous stuff is hitting the fan and we just need to perform. We need to deliver. To take the quick timeout, it can literally be 30 seconds, and say, Hey, Mark, look, how are you? How are you actually, like, let’s do a quick check in. So that’s that’s one thing I would encourage all of us to do, and it’s too easy to forget when we’re under pressure and when there’s high stake environments, but the quick sort of personal check ins literally 30 seconds or a minute that can help. There’s no question about
Mark McBride-Wright 27:57
that. Yeah, very true. And finally, then share, act, feel, empower. What practical tools or behaviors do you teach leaders to help them empower others and create space for growth?
Urs Koenig 28:11
Well, that’s such a big topic. Mark, of course, as you and I know empowering, I think one of the things I often tell people to do leaders, and they don’t do that, enough is have a explicit conversation with your team members around what decision I expect you, what decisions I expect you to make on your own, like I empower you to make those decisions, and what decisions I expect you to come to me for you Know, to check. So if you look at your portfolio of work, let’s decide together which decisions, for example, technical issues in your area of expertise, you know, in your workflow, like I expect you to I empower you to take action independently, on your own. Don’t come to me with that. However, if there is competing priorities, if we have resource scarcity, whatever it might be, then I want you to come to me with that. So having the explicit conversation about Mark, you’re empowered to do X, Y, Z, but these three other things I expect you to come to me and discuss that so that is, I find a very powerful way to explicitly empower your team members to take independent actions where you expect them to do so. It’s
Mark McBride-Wright 29:26
a good it’s good advice any size of business, I guess, but especially if you’re running a small, medium enterprise. I mean, I identify even with that advice. Actually, you know, sometimes, as a founder, you can be too close to the too close to the coal face, so to speak, or to or the you know, the thing that you’re building is inherently wired to your reputation, or what you’ve carved out in the in the space which, which makes it harder if you’re wanting to diversify your. Own experience, you know, or want it to exist on its own, you know. So I run a business, equal engineers. It’s based in the United Kingdom. And now that I’m over here in the US, I’m sort of figuring out the lay of the land over here, and if, if there’s even a market for the work that we do in the UK over here, given the current, you know, political climate. So, so I need that focus in that time, you know. So I’m really leaning on my team members, and they’re absolutely brilliant, but I think I could probably do a bit more of what you’re saying. There is, you know, just set those guardrails for, for empowering them to do, to to solve things on their own, you know? And, and, yeah, no, it’s good advice. It’s good advice. Do you know actually applies not just to business leaders, but even as being a parent to like kids to anyone?
Urs Koenig 30:55
So I have two teenage boys. Do you have kids? Mark? I do.
Mark McBride-Wright 30:58
I’ve got a five year old and a seven year old. I
Urs Koenig 31:01
that’s, I’m so glad you bring this up. So a lot of what I talk about, think about, write about, around humble leadership absolutely applies to parenting as well. Yeah, it’s and I think you know it may be, well, it’s also true for younger kids, but certainly for teenagers, I expect you to solve this on your own, empower you, but however you know XYZ, you come to me, there’s no question about that. It applies there too. I
Mark McBride-Wright 31:28
went to a wedding recently and met some distant family members who have not seen in a while. And it was really, you know, their kids are now in their 20s. And it’s, it’s, it was funny here and there, because I’ve not seen them since the kids were like younger teenagers. And it’s it was funny hearing them share about how they’re trying to shift their relationship with their kids, to be more adult and less parent, child and more adult, adult, peer to peer. And it must it. I can’t imagine having that relationship yet with my children, because I’m still so much in parent child mode, you know. But just that conversation, along with your point around I was reading recently about what energy you need to come in at, depending on the energy of a situation, you know. And if the energy is up here and it’s all Ah, if you come in and match that energy, then it just, it just, is gonna, you know, explode, whereas you need to come in a few octaves lower and to then bring the situation, the situation down. So I guess all leadership advice applies in to parenthood, because you’re, you’re leading some small people by definition, absolutely.
Urs Koenig 32:39
So, you know, one of the things I certainly have many flaws as a dad, Mark, but one thing I do do I, which I also preach in business, is to ask my boys for regular feedback on what they see me do well as a dad and what I can improve. Like, how can I be a better dad to you? And that is something that all of us need to get better at in business as well. How can I be a better manager to you? What suggestions do you have for me so I can delegate better, empower more, make you more successful at your job? So that is absolutely true. It’s really spans across. And by the way, look, your startup is your baby, like we talk, we talk about that, right? It’s your baby. And then you know, and I know you know this stuff, but the only way to scale is this is for you to subtract yourself, right? Yeah, so the real, the real test is how the ship runs when you’re not there. And that, again, goes for parenting too. The real test of my parenting is, how am I how my boys trash or not trash my house when I’m gone for the weekend, right
Mark McBride-Wright 33:46
up some mountain. Exactly so well, then think talking about future goals and reflections, like what what is next for the radical humility movement? What kind of impact do you hope it continues to have? Tell us even a bit about the is there a business behind the book and the support? And what do you what do you offer?
Urs Koenig 34:07
It’s all work in progress, that one being very transparent and open about this. So I primarily speak these days. So I’m out on stage just doing keynotes around my topic. Run some workshops as well, but I’m in the process of thinking about because I have some other plans as well. Maybe there’s another peacekeeping mission in the books for me, who knows? But I’m thinking about building a more robust learning platform with online learning and different tools. But honestly, that is all work in progress. I’m thinking through this this year, I haven’t really made any firm decisions on that. Okay,
Mark McBride-Wright 34:44
what are what advice would you give to someone then who wants to lead with courage but fears being perceived as too soft.
Urs Koenig 34:57
I think my response is very similar to the. Previous one with vulnerability because let’s look at so it depends what the person how the person is mired. Let’s look at the research together. Let’s look at what vulnerability can actually offer in terms of building powerful, meaningful relationships, and then model it, demonstrate it, lead by example, and then have the courage, and that really requires also finesse, to call out what’s happening in the moment. Yes, as you share something personal with your team member who’s afraid, like, tell him or her, like or ask him how what is it like when you hear me share something personal as your boss. Okay, so check this out. That’s what you can do with your team members as well.
Mark McBride-Wright 35:45
And then ask for the feedback. So what? So you say, your work in progress, thinking things through, you know, new products, services that you might bring to market, where people can access that brain of yours, but in a in different ways, it all ultimately then leads towards legacy. So what does legacy mean to you? How do you want to be remembered as a leader, a teacher, a guide?
Urs Koenig 36:16
You know, actually, that might sound cheesy, but it’s very true. The subtitle of my book is be a badass leader and a good human, tough on results, tender on people, there you go.
Mark McBride-Wright 36:28
So for those of you watching this on YouTube, there you go. I’m holding up a picture of the book.
Urs Koenig 36:33
So I’d love to be remembered as a badass who is a very good human, so somebody who does hard stuff and is not afraid to lean into hard challenges, but actually is really a good friend, a good dad, a good brother, a good son and a good community member, so that yin yang like, that’s what I’ll strive for, in terms of, if I want to call it, my legacy,
Mark McBride-Wright 36:58
fabulous. Okay, quick fire questions. You ready? I am so what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?
Urs Koenig 37:10
It’s from my dad, literally on his deathbed. He said, Urs, we are born alone. We die alone. All that counts at the end of the day is that your life feels right to you. Nobody else matters.
Mark McBride-Wright 37:24
What’s your proudest professional moment?
Urs Koenig 37:30
Rejoining the peacekeeping force after having been out for 22 years
Mark McBride-Wright 37:36
was one skill every leader should have,
Urs Koenig 37:41
asking for meaningful feedback and being able to receive it and hear it, even if you disagree, and especially if you disagree.
Mark McBride-Wright 37:51
Yeah, coffee or tea?
Urs Koenig 37:53
Oh, it’s easy. Coffee.
Mark McBride-Wright 37:58
What’s your go to? Productivity hack
Urs Koenig 38:02
I work out in the middle of the day, right? I make my to do list the night before. And when I’m really stuck, I change my physical location. I walk down from my home office to my local Starbucks or anywhere else and get work done there that’s free. Sorry, not one.
Mark McBride-Wright 38:21
And I just realized you’re in Seattle, which is where Starbucks originated from, correct? If you could have dinner with any leader past or present, who would it
Urs Koenig 38:31
be, as so many former Secretary General calling Secretary of State, rather, Colin Powell comes to mind. And then I would love to have dinner with Zelensky from Ukraine. Oh,
Mark McBride-Wright 38:45
what’s one thing you do to unwind?
Urs Koenig 38:48
Sauna and cold plunge?
Mark McBride-Wright 38:51
And what’s the most exciting idea or project you’re working on right now?
Urs Koenig 38:56
So that’s the what I just talked about, the very much work in progress around the radical humility Leadership Institute and then exploring a potential next peacekeeping mission.
Mark McBride-Wright 39:08
What’s one book besides your own? You recommend on leadership?
Urs Koenig 39:13
Oh, there’s too many. So I have, can I do two? And I have them right here. So the culture code I hold up for the YouTube readers, by Daniel Coyle, oh yeah, it’s great. And then right, kind of wrong, by Professor Amy Evanson, who’s, of course, the queen of psycho safety and pulling up too. So those two, but there’s plenty more. So those two come to mind. And
Mark McBride-Wright 39:35
finally, what’s the one thing you wish more leaders understood?
Urs Koenig 39:41
Humble leadership is a superpower. It’s needed to win
Mark McBride-Wright 39:47
fabulous well. Thank you very much for your time today. How if people want to get in touch with you, if they want to get a copy of your book, if they want to come and hear you speak, you know how? So where do we get all that information? Absolutely,
Urs Koenig 40:02
find me on the web, at URS, koenig.com, u, r, s, k, o, e, n, I, g.com, for my speaking, my books on Amazon. That’s the easiest way to get it. And then I’m very active on LinkedIn, less on other platforms, but I love to engage and interact with folks on LinkedIn about my message and what resonates and what might be challenging to implement.
Mark McBride-Wright 40:23
Fabulous. We’ll put links to all of that in the in the show notes as well. Thank you so much.
Urs Koenig 40:30
Thanks. Mark. Was great. Appreciate it. Speak to you soon. You.
E023: Radical Humility Is the Leadership Edge We Need
Podcast Description
Read the Transcript
Mark McBride-Wright 0:00
Hello. Welcome to the next episode of the safe leader podcast. I’m your host, Mark McBride Wright, today I’m joined with URS Koenig, who is the best selling author of radical humility. So urs is an internationally renowned keynote speaker, Best Selling Author of radical humility. Be a badass leader and a good human and the founder of the radical humility Leadership Institute, with a career that spans UN and NATO peacekeeping missions, ultra endurance sports, academia and executive coaching, Uros brings a rare blend of resilience research and realism to his message of human centered leadership. He has worked with leaders at world class organizations such as Amazon, Starbucks, Microsoft and the Society for Human Resource Management, helping them navigate complex challenges while fostering high performing, psychologically safe teams. His signature framework, radical humility, offers practical research backed tools for today’s leaders to be tough on results and tender on people. Urs has also served as an executive coach at the Honor Foundation, helping us Special Operations Forces transition to corporate life. He is a passionate advocate for developing leaders who are bold, empathetic and grounded worse. Welcome.
Urs Koenig 1:27
Thank you so much for having me, Mark. I look forward to our conversation. Yeah,
Mark McBride-Wright 1:31
me too. I am just rereading your bio there and reading out I remember the first time I came across you on LinkedIn and the diversity of the buckets that you fit into, in terms of, I think you were like running some Iron Man or some sort of you know thing that I’ll probably never do in my life, you know, physical prowess, sort of endurance thing, and then, and then all those other, all those other layers to you, it’s quite a it’s quite a broad, broad set of experience. You know, wearing many hats, being a peacekeeper, an endurance athlete, a professor, a coach. You know what? What brought you to all this? It’s so it’s so varied. Well.
Urs Koenig 2:21
Thank you. I take this as a compliment. It is a rather eccentric career that I have indeed. Yeah, look, I think I mean, in a nutshell, I’ve always been really into leadership, so that’s sort of the one constant aspect through all of my different jobs and and positions I’ve held. But honestly, I think at the at the heart of it, I’m a bit of a restless soul, so I really try to assess, every three to five years where I’m at in my career, and then look at, you know, what else might I want to experience? What else might I want to do? That fills my pocket, that keeps me energized, that keeps me learning. And so that’s how I jumped around. You know, we I’m sure we’ll talk a bit more about the peacekeeping, but I actually rejoined the military after having been out for 22 years for my peacekeeping mission, my first one in Kosovo. So, so that was a trip, as you can imagine, after having been out for that long. But really it’s my hunger for life, for learning, for new experiences, that drives me
Mark McBride-Wright 3:30
so tell us about your time then, as a UN and NATO Peacekeeper, how did those high pressure environments inform your understanding of power, humility and safety in particular.
Urs Koenig 3:43
Look, that’s that’s a great question, and people are often surprised how I answer it. So we think of the military as very top down command control. Do as I say, because I tell you so and sure that happens. There’s no question about it. But I actually found in my peacekeeping missions that the best commanders, the best leaders, are those who display great humility, build meaningful relationships with the people and make it safe. I know that’s an important topic in your work. Make it safe for their team members to speak up, and you mentioned one of my signature sort of phrases in the intro, tough on results. Tendron people, I will never forget my commanding officer in the Balkans in Kosovo. He sat me he called me to his office, my colonel, my boss, he sat me down, and he said, Urs, you know I love you. I do, and your work is not even close to being good enough. So that’s tough, fun, results, tendron people. I’ve worked with the guy for nine months at that point, so he wasn’t just saying he loved me. I knew he really meant it. He took a keen interest in me as a person, not just as one of his captains who was leading a team. He knew about my family, my plans after the mission. And so he really was tender on people by getting to know me, by caring about me on a personal level, and that then gave him license to be tough on results and say what I delivered, whatever it was like three days earlier, was not even close to being good enough. So it’s interesting to think about this. If he would have yelled at me, you know, chewed me out what we sort of think stereotypically happens in the military. Yeah, I would have tuned him out. I would have gone whatever, you know. But because he said, I love you, and I know he meant it, I was really able to hear his feedback. Yeah, and so that’s one example of how I experienced safety as part of my peacekeeping mission. Another example, this was my second mission in the Middle East. My commanding officer opened an after action review with these words. She said, I screwed that up, and I know it. And here is what I’m gonna do. Here’s what I’m going to do, so it will never happen again. Her ability to go first, then made it safe, coming back to safety for all of us, her teammates, to do the same own what we did well and what we need to do better, all because she went first. All because she had the humility and the courage to go first, model the behavior she wanted us to display, and made it safe for everybody to share, their own mess ups. So that’s just two examples of my peacekeeping missions. It’s
Mark McBride-Wright 6:24
also, you know, I’ve seen a lot of stuff recently come out about how, like just clarifying what psychological safety is, and the fact that it’s not about just making it easy or have an easy pass or avoiding conflict, you know. And in that example of your first example of the military leader, where they could have chewed you up, as you say, and you would have shut down, they also could have to have avoided conflict. And I’m not sure this would really happen in a military setting, but it might in other softer settings, you know, to just keep the peace, and you just don’t actually give the feedback of what you’re really thinking. And so because, because you, because you avoid conflict, you know, so, so no one’s really winning. Then in that world, you’re holding back. You’re not saying what you really think. You’re not giving the member of your team the opportunity to develop because you want to avoid conflict.
Urs Koenig 7:25
And by the way, the conflict avoidance happens also in the military. Let’s be crystal clear. It happens, you and I know like it happens across all organizations, all teams, and you’re absolutely right. You know, psychological safety is an important part of what I call leading with radical humility, and it is such a misunderstood notion. Even Professor Amy Evanson, who coined the phrase she even to this day, has to push back. It’s not about being nice, it’s not about being cozy. It’s not about being kind, necessarily, and it’s most definitely not about lowering performance stands. It’s exactly what you’re saying, speaking truth to power, direct feedback, both giving it and as a leader, being able to receive it. So that’s where it’s at. It’s not at all about avoiding but it’s talking about the real stuff that really matters.
Mark McBride-Wright 8:17
So how so? So in one of these three to five year resets that you self impose, when? How did the endurance sports side of things come into it?
Urs Koenig 8:32
Well, that is actually it. That’s been one of the constants in my life mark. I grew up in a very athletic family. My dad was Uber athletic. In fact, my sister, I have two younger sisters. My middle sister has been a professional athlete for 20 plus years, very, very successful. And so from a very young age, I was drawn to sort of long, adventurous things. I think I ran my first marathon at 16. I did 100 kilometer run at 19 and and throughout my whole life. And then I got into the cross country skiing, triathlons, and later on, what’s called Ultra cycling, which is bike races ranging in length from from 200 to 3000 miles. So that has actually been one of the constants in my life. And you know, I’m have some ailing issues in my body now at age 58 so I have to be careful, but I can still still do stuff. Last summer, I did a what’s called an Everest thing in the Swiss Alps, so hiked the equivalent of Mount Everest up and then rode the bike, or took the gondola down 8848 meters. And I love this stuff. It’s pure it, by the way. I mean, we can talk about that, but it auto endurance competition, or, for that matter, any athletic endeavors. It really teaches you to lose. It teaches me to fail. It teaches me, how do I come back from a huge disappointment, from a race I didn’t finish or I messed up, and come back stronger the next year? So, you know, I move my body every day to this day, at least half an hour every day of something, but the ultra endurance stuff really has been one of the constants in my life, so that I don’t need to reassess every three years. That’s just something that’s
Mark McBride-Wright 10:13
a constant. That’s right, it’s a, it’s a, it’s something that I imagine when you do work with leadership teams. You know, sports, something at any level of depth, exercise. It’s something everyone has a connection to, whether we’re actively doing it or not. We know we should be. But does it? Does it help you build camaraderie with, with, you know, people, when you’re when you’re taking them on a, on a training course, or a or a coaching experience, that sort of shared interest in sport,
Urs Koenig 10:49
you know, so I don’t do sort of outdoor adventure things with my clients. And there’s people who do this very well that I was
Mark McBride-Wright 10:56
meaning, I was meaning more like, so, so a lot of people that, like in engineering, you know, there’s a there’s it’s quite a heavily male majority profession, and so when you’re doing like leadership stuff in high testosterone environments, I often find relating to sport can help melt the ice with groups, so to speak, in the analogies that you can pull from, I must admit, it’s not something that often works with myself, because I’m I do what I need to do to keep fit and be healthy, but I’m not like a heavy on the sports sort of front. So it kind of falls short with me sometimes, like the sport analogies and the sport idioms. But I guess I’m stereotyping here, thinking, Do you feel it helps you connect with with people when you’re training. You
Urs Koenig 11:43
know, no question, no question. So Mark, yeah, you’re absolutely correct. So because of the the ultra endurance stuff being, you know, you can argue it’s sort of a very macho, driven environment. It’s literally last man or woman standing like whoever can last the longest, first day, first night, second day, 72 hours, 96 hours. So because of that background, and I talk very openly about, you know, the stuff that I’ve learned both from my successes and failures as an ultra endurance athlete, and you’re so right on that, combined with my peacekeeping work, gives me quite a bit of credibility. And you refer to the, you know, type A, mainly guys testosterone feel like. And then, because I have that background, in fact, you know, that’s in all humility, maybe one of the superpowers I have, then I can actually relate to them. And then I can go to places like the value of vulnerability, yeah, the value of opening up about your feelings and not just your thoughts. That’s from the neck up, but from the neck down. And because, again, all the humility I can master here, because of my background, I’m able to bring that message, and the message is then heard much, maybe better than if it came from somebody who doesn’t have that background. So you’re absolutely right. It’s something that helps me relate and people connect to I have in one of my keynotes, I extensively talked about, or talk about, the near death experience I had during the race across America, a 3000 mile non stop transcontinental bike race. And that story really resonates with a lot of people, mainly guys, no question about it.
Mark McBride-Wright 13:28
So tell us about your definition, then, of radical humility. What is it?
Urs Koenig 13:32
So radical humility has sort of three legs to the stool. The first one is deep self awareness, and that’s what people think of when they think of humility. I see myself accurately, and by the way, not too low, not too high, not too arrogant, not too modest or too humble. So an accurate view of myself, which, as you and I know, is a part of a lot of leadership development, yes, reducing those blind spots. So that’s number one, the second and really the core. If I had to pick one core element of leading with radical humility, it’s a relational approach to leadership. It’s leading by building collaborative and meaningful relationships, versus simply leading by content expertise. That’s both on an individual level, one on one, we talked about tough and results, 10 wrong people and the team and organization wide level, we talked about psychological safety. So that’s the relational piece. And then the third piece is, you know what we call the growth mindset, right? So seeing mistakes, failures and setbacks, both on an individual level, but also on a team and organization wide level, as an opportunity for learning and growing versus something to be ashamed of, or worse, even sweep under the carpet. So self awareness leading relationally and then the growth mindset, those are the three legs to the stool. Yeah.
Mark McBride-Wright 15:00
So you mentioned you’re a keynote speaker as well. There. What’s the one leadership message? Then, from becoming radically, radically, what is the verb of humility? Actually humble? It’s from the word humble. Yeah, of course. So what’s the one leadership message you hope people walk away with after hearing you speak,
Urs Koenig 15:26
humility is not being weak or meek. It’s in fact, in fact a necessary superpower in order to lead to win in today’s world. So I’m not advocating for humble leadership, because it’s the right thing to do, and I believe it is. It is the right thing to do, to see myself accurately, to build meaningful relationships with my teammates, but it’s actually a prerequisite to winning in today’s complex world. So if they take that away that it’s a superpower versus something that’s weak or sort of meek. So that that’s my message.
Mark McBride-Wright 16:02
It’s I maybe there’s I mean, you can go down the route of stereotypes here. I wonder if there’s something about the different different cultures, different different nationalities and what were, what were usually like, you know, as a majority group, you know, I find since moving to the USA, you know, just Americans in general are more they like talking about achievements, that the growth mindset almost seems much more in the culture here, when compared to, say, in the British culture, where a lot More we don’t really talk about our achievements much in the UK, you know, it can feel like bragging. It can feel like maybe too far into the, you know, the other side of being humble. You know, almost arrogant. You know, the arrogant side. It can be perceived. So I guess there’s, do you find there’s a scale of what’s too arrogant and too humble that varies by different geographies or different companies, even not just geographies different organizations, like the tolerance of what’s accepted in the range
Urs Koenig 17:12
Absolutely I mean, and this sort of plays into the situational leadership approach. So we need to adapt according to the culture we’re in, as you correctly point out, both organizationally, but also the culture of the country or the region I work and live in. So you know, I served in the Middle East, Lebanon, Egypt. I served in the Balkans, and I will never forget, by the way, so this is a funny little anecdote about the cultural differences in in the Balkans, I had to give my interpreters, my language specialists, a performance review, and like any good boss, I had them in, there’s a form I needed to use, because that’s the form that the Armed Forces told me to use. I gave the form to the interpreters and said, Please, self assess you, self as self as you self assess and I assess yourself. And then we have a conversation together on, you know what you might be, what you might be able, what you might need to improve, and what you’re doing. Well, without exception, all four of my interpreters assess themselves on every single bucket as five out of five. They they itself, is it? And so I went, like, seriously, like, you think you’re perfect in everything? And it was almost, it wasn’t all it was very funny. So we had and then they said, Look, in our culture, why would I admit to my boss that I have a gap, that I’m not not that great at something. Why would I do that? That’s just not what we do in our culture. And so it was a real eye opener for me to then go, and then we had a good laugh about it, and then we’re able to talk about it, and and then, you know, there were much more shades of gray after our conversation, but that’s one example right of of cultural differences. So absolutely, there’s huge differences. And as you correctly point out, even in, you know, I’ve lived in the States for now 24 years, within companies, even within teams like every as you know, every team has its own culture. Yes, even the same company, and it might be a bit more humble, or it might be a bit
Mark McBride-Wright 19:18
more arrogant, and that that, you know, with with the safe leader model that I developed in my work, it’s, it’s a simple wheel where safe stands for, share, act, feel, empower, and it’s very much trying to encourage leaders to understand what their difference is. Firstly, what’s their story? What’s if they were to be open about something, it would then put more stories out into the world where people can acquire learned experience. You know, there’s lived experience and learned experience, and because men aren’t often very good at being vulnerable and open up about those things beneath. The neck down and opening up about what’s causing emotion and with their heart and with their core, there’s less stories around for people to learn and to relate to, you know, and learn from. So I’d love to, like, work the safe leader model with you just now. It’s a it’s a new thing I want to start doing in the podcast. So you’re the first guest that I’m really going deep with this on. So
Urs Koenig 20:26
Mark, right.
Mark McBride-Wright 20:30
So if we start with share, how do you share stories, either your own or others to foster connection and trust with the people that you coach or lead.
Urs Koenig 20:42
Look, I think that what I do personally and what I help people do, is to actually share some of your own more vulnerable stories to build trust. And you pointed that out earlier, a lot of people, mainly males, really struggle with this concept of opening up like my interpreters in Kosovo did, being vulnerable, or admitting that I’m not perfect. So if there is resistance, I do two things. I quote the research, and there’s plenty of research showing that vulnerability, appropriate vulnerability, is actually the quickest way to build trust and vulnerability. Might simply be I share with you something I’m working on, a goal I have. It demonstrates to you that I’m too I’m working progress and always strive to get better. So and then there’s, you know, I quote the research study in the book, if I might quickly do a quick digression, and I come back to your question, where pairs of complete strangers are brought into a lab, they’ve never met each other, and they were then tasked with asking and answering meaningful personal questions, not small talk, but things like, what does love and friendship mean to you? Or, if you only had 12 months to live, what would you change? By the way, that’s a great question for all of us to ask. Occasionally, at the end of those 45 minutes, participants were asked to rate the level of trust that developed with a partner. 45 minutes, they rated the level of trust about as high as the level of trust they have with the average person in their lives. Some even rated as high as the level of trust they have with their with their significant other, and one pair. I love this, even got married but but the point is that the research is crystal clear. Sharing with appropriate vulnerability, sharing a goal, maybe something you’re working on, something you’re not quite sure about, a mistake you’ve made in the past, in your career. You know this is safe to talk about that, because it happened in the past, and you can talk to people what you learned, what you messed up, what you messed up, and what you learned from your mess up. Like that is an incredibly powerful way to share, build your trust, and demonstrate to your team members that actually sharing your stories, sharing with the vulnerability is an incredible, incredibly powerful way to build trust. And you know, one last thing on this. This is Brene Brown, of course, the queen of vulnerability, who says vulnerability is the last thing I want to show you, but it’s the first thing I look for in you. And if honest, if we peel back the layers a little bit like that is so true for all of us. When you share something personal with me, Mark, I immediately, on an emotional level, feel more connected. So that’s how I think about the s or share of your framework. Oh,
Mark McBride-Wright 23:32
I love that. Oh, I like this. Thank you. And so moving on to act. Can you share a bold decision that you made, personally or professionally that help the team or organization shift toward a more inclusive or psychologically safe culture.
Urs Koenig 23:50
So I so this might be a bit counter intuitive, but this was during my peacekeeping mission in Kosovo. Towards the end of the mission, everybody’s tired, the team just wants to go home, and there was a lot of bickering going on, people talking behind each other’s back and not really doing the job, and a lot of gossip. So not a good not a good situation. And we literally had like a week left, so I did a bold move, which could have backfired. I ordered everybody on a day off at 1400 hours into our tactical operations center for a meeting in uniform, even there was a day off. And I laid out my observation of what I see going on in a team. You’re bickering, you’re sort of, you know, not exactly, throwing obstacles in each other’s ways, but almost, and that’s unacceptable. And I raised my voice. I think I have a section in the book where I write about how to raise your voice. I wasn’t yelling at them, but I raised my voice, and then I gave a direct order. I told them all that they have two hours and spend 10 minutes with each other. Every team member spends 10 minutes. With every other team member, including me. And during those 10 minutes, direct order, you air all the grievances you have with that person, all the grievances, and after that, we’re done. You have the night off tomorrow morning, 07, 100. We start as one team. Now, to be clear, this is not something you do when you have a brand new team. I’ve worked with these people. We laughed, we cried together. They knew me and they, you know, I never yelled at them, but that’s the one time I did and because it was the one time the message landed. Did they like doing it? No, they didn’t. Did it work? It absolutely did. So after that, you know, they weren’t perfect, but much better, like a real turnaround. So that was a bit bold. And you know what, not what I think or what people think as sort of safe or humble leadership, but because we had a track record together, I knew I could come in strong and bold and turn the ship around.
Mark McBride-Wright 25:56
Interesting. I do wonder HR managers or directors in an organization might
Urs Koenig 26:03
they might have an issue with that. Might have an issue with that approach. Yes, yes. Sometimes, sometimes you gotta just ask for forgiveness versus for permission. Yeah, that was my approach here. Yeah,
Mark McBride-Wright 26:18
true. Hey. So with, feel, share, act, feel. How do you stay emotionally attuned in high performance settings, especially when outcomes and key performance indicators and performance and everything are front of mind. How do you stay emotionally connected?
Urs Koenig 26:37
Do you mean emotionally connected to my people or to myself? Or what do you mean,
Mark McBride-Wright 26:41
in all, in all, in all, and always, and always.
Urs Koenig 26:46
So for me personally, that actually comes easy, and it’s actually, it’s a strength I have, which also can become a weakness. I to a fault, am in tune with what’s going on with my team members, on a on a sort of, you know, emotional level, so, and which also means, and that’s a weakness, I sometimes carry that emotional burden with me, so I almost feel too, too strongly. But I think, um, for others who might not be wired the same way, it’s important throughout high pressure situations when you know the famous stuff is hitting the fan and we just need to perform. We need to deliver. To take the quick timeout, it can literally be 30 seconds, and say, Hey, Mark, look, how are you? How are you actually, like, let’s do a quick check in. So that’s that’s one thing I would encourage all of us to do, and it’s too easy to forget when we’re under pressure and when there’s high stake environments, but the quick sort of personal check ins literally 30 seconds or a minute that can help. There’s no question about
Mark McBride-Wright 27:57
that. Yeah, very true. And finally, then share, act, feel, empower. What practical tools or behaviors do you teach leaders to help them empower others and create space for growth?
Urs Koenig 28:11
Well, that’s such a big topic. Mark, of course, as you and I know empowering, I think one of the things I often tell people to do leaders, and they don’t do that, enough is have a explicit conversation with your team members around what decision I expect you, what decisions I expect you to make on your own, like I empower you to make those decisions, and what decisions I expect you to come to me for you Know, to check. So if you look at your portfolio of work, let’s decide together which decisions, for example, technical issues in your area of expertise, you know, in your workflow, like I expect you to I empower you to take action independently, on your own. Don’t come to me with that. However, if there is competing priorities, if we have resource scarcity, whatever it might be, then I want you to come to me with that. So having the explicit conversation about Mark, you’re empowered to do X, Y, Z, but these three other things I expect you to come to me and discuss that so that is, I find a very powerful way to explicitly empower your team members to take independent actions where you expect them to do so. It’s
Mark McBride-Wright 29:26
a good it’s good advice any size of business, I guess, but especially if you’re running a small, medium enterprise. I mean, I identify even with that advice. Actually, you know, sometimes, as a founder, you can be too close to the too close to the coal face, so to speak, or to or the you know, the thing that you’re building is inherently wired to your reputation, or what you’ve carved out in the in the space which, which makes it harder if you’re wanting to diversify your. Own experience, you know, or want it to exist on its own, you know. So I run a business, equal engineers. It’s based in the United Kingdom. And now that I’m over here in the US, I’m sort of figuring out the lay of the land over here, and if, if there’s even a market for the work that we do in the UK over here, given the current, you know, political climate. So, so I need that focus in that time, you know. So I’m really leaning on my team members, and they’re absolutely brilliant, but I think I could probably do a bit more of what you’re saying. There is, you know, just set those guardrails for, for empowering them to do, to to solve things on their own, you know? And, and, yeah, no, it’s good advice. It’s good advice. Do you know actually applies not just to business leaders, but even as being a parent to like kids to anyone?
Urs Koenig 30:55
So I have two teenage boys. Do you have kids? Mark? I do.
Mark McBride-Wright 30:58
I’ve got a five year old and a seven year old. I
Urs Koenig 31:01
that’s, I’m so glad you bring this up. So a lot of what I talk about, think about, write about, around humble leadership absolutely applies to parenting as well. Yeah, it’s and I think you know it may be, well, it’s also true for younger kids, but certainly for teenagers, I expect you to solve this on your own, empower you, but however you know XYZ, you come to me, there’s no question about that. It applies there too. I
Mark McBride-Wright 31:28
went to a wedding recently and met some distant family members who have not seen in a while. And it was really, you know, their kids are now in their 20s. And it’s, it’s, it was funny here and there, because I’ve not seen them since the kids were like younger teenagers. And it’s it was funny hearing them share about how they’re trying to shift their relationship with their kids, to be more adult and less parent, child and more adult, adult, peer to peer. And it must it. I can’t imagine having that relationship yet with my children, because I’m still so much in parent child mode, you know. But just that conversation, along with your point around I was reading recently about what energy you need to come in at, depending on the energy of a situation, you know. And if the energy is up here and it’s all Ah, if you come in and match that energy, then it just, it just, is gonna, you know, explode, whereas you need to come in a few octaves lower and to then bring the situation, the situation down. So I guess all leadership advice applies in to parenthood, because you’re, you’re leading some small people by definition, absolutely.
Urs Koenig 32:39
So, you know, one of the things I certainly have many flaws as a dad, Mark, but one thing I do do I, which I also preach in business, is to ask my boys for regular feedback on what they see me do well as a dad and what I can improve. Like, how can I be a better dad to you? And that is something that all of us need to get better at in business as well. How can I be a better manager to you? What suggestions do you have for me so I can delegate better, empower more, make you more successful at your job? So that is absolutely true. It’s really spans across. And by the way, look, your startup is your baby, like we talk, we talk about that, right? It’s your baby. And then you know, and I know you know this stuff, but the only way to scale is this is for you to subtract yourself, right? Yeah, so the real, the real test is how the ship runs when you’re not there. And that, again, goes for parenting too. The real test of my parenting is, how am I how my boys trash or not trash my house when I’m gone for the weekend, right
Mark McBride-Wright 33:46
up some mountain. Exactly so well, then think talking about future goals and reflections, like what what is next for the radical humility movement? What kind of impact do you hope it continues to have? Tell us even a bit about the is there a business behind the book and the support? And what do you what do you offer?
Urs Koenig 34:07
It’s all work in progress, that one being very transparent and open about this. So I primarily speak these days. So I’m out on stage just doing keynotes around my topic. Run some workshops as well, but I’m in the process of thinking about because I have some other plans as well. Maybe there’s another peacekeeping mission in the books for me, who knows? But I’m thinking about building a more robust learning platform with online learning and different tools. But honestly, that is all work in progress. I’m thinking through this this year, I haven’t really made any firm decisions on that. Okay,
Mark McBride-Wright 34:44
what are what advice would you give to someone then who wants to lead with courage but fears being perceived as too soft.
Urs Koenig 34:57
I think my response is very similar to the. Previous one with vulnerability because let’s look at so it depends what the person how the person is mired. Let’s look at the research together. Let’s look at what vulnerability can actually offer in terms of building powerful, meaningful relationships, and then model it, demonstrate it, lead by example, and then have the courage, and that really requires also finesse, to call out what’s happening in the moment. Yes, as you share something personal with your team member who’s afraid, like, tell him or her, like or ask him how what is it like when you hear me share something personal as your boss. Okay, so check this out. That’s what you can do with your team members as well.
Mark McBride-Wright 35:45
And then ask for the feedback. So what? So you say, your work in progress, thinking things through, you know, new products, services that you might bring to market, where people can access that brain of yours, but in a in different ways, it all ultimately then leads towards legacy. So what does legacy mean to you? How do you want to be remembered as a leader, a teacher, a guide?
Urs Koenig 36:16
You know, actually, that might sound cheesy, but it’s very true. The subtitle of my book is be a badass leader and a good human, tough on results, tender on people, there you go.
Mark McBride-Wright 36:28
So for those of you watching this on YouTube, there you go. I’m holding up a picture of the book.
Urs Koenig 36:33
So I’d love to be remembered as a badass who is a very good human, so somebody who does hard stuff and is not afraid to lean into hard challenges, but actually is really a good friend, a good dad, a good brother, a good son and a good community member, so that yin yang like, that’s what I’ll strive for, in terms of, if I want to call it, my legacy,
Mark McBride-Wright 36:58
fabulous. Okay, quick fire questions. You ready? I am so what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?
Urs Koenig 37:10
It’s from my dad, literally on his deathbed. He said, Urs, we are born alone. We die alone. All that counts at the end of the day is that your life feels right to you. Nobody else matters.
Mark McBride-Wright 37:24
What’s your proudest professional moment?
Urs Koenig 37:30
Rejoining the peacekeeping force after having been out for 22 years
Mark McBride-Wright 37:36
was one skill every leader should have,
Urs Koenig 37:41
asking for meaningful feedback and being able to receive it and hear it, even if you disagree, and especially if you disagree.
Mark McBride-Wright 37:51
Yeah, coffee or tea?
Urs Koenig 37:53
Oh, it’s easy. Coffee.
Mark McBride-Wright 37:58
What’s your go to? Productivity hack
Urs Koenig 38:02
I work out in the middle of the day, right? I make my to do list the night before. And when I’m really stuck, I change my physical location. I walk down from my home office to my local Starbucks or anywhere else and get work done there that’s free. Sorry, not one.
Mark McBride-Wright 38:21
And I just realized you’re in Seattle, which is where Starbucks originated from, correct? If you could have dinner with any leader past or present, who would it
Urs Koenig 38:31
be, as so many former Secretary General calling Secretary of State, rather, Colin Powell comes to mind. And then I would love to have dinner with Zelensky from Ukraine. Oh,
Mark McBride-Wright 38:45
what’s one thing you do to unwind?
Urs Koenig 38:48
Sauna and cold plunge?
Mark McBride-Wright 38:51
And what’s the most exciting idea or project you’re working on right now?
Urs Koenig 38:56
So that’s the what I just talked about, the very much work in progress around the radical humility Leadership Institute and then exploring a potential next peacekeeping mission.
Mark McBride-Wright 39:08
What’s one book besides your own? You recommend on leadership?
Urs Koenig 39:13
Oh, there’s too many. So I have, can I do two? And I have them right here. So the culture code I hold up for the YouTube readers, by Daniel Coyle, oh yeah, it’s great. And then right, kind of wrong, by Professor Amy Evanson, who’s, of course, the queen of psycho safety and pulling up too. So those two, but there’s plenty more. So those two come to mind. And
Mark McBride-Wright 39:35
finally, what’s the one thing you wish more leaders understood?
Urs Koenig 39:41
Humble leadership is a superpower. It’s needed to win
Mark McBride-Wright 39:47
fabulous well. Thank you very much for your time today. How if people want to get in touch with you, if they want to get a copy of your book, if they want to come and hear you speak, you know how? So where do we get all that information? Absolutely,
Urs Koenig 40:02
find me on the web, at URS, koenig.com, u, r, s, k, o, e, n, I, g.com, for my speaking, my books on Amazon. That’s the easiest way to get it. And then I’m very active on LinkedIn, less on other platforms, but I love to engage and interact with folks on LinkedIn about my message and what resonates and what might be challenging to implement.
Mark McBride-Wright 40:23
Fabulous. We’ll put links to all of that in the in the show notes as well. Thank you so much.
Urs Koenig 40:30
Thanks. Mark. Was great. Appreciate it. Speak to you soon. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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