E008: Breaking Barriers and Building Careers

Mark McBride-Wright 0:01
Welcome to another podcast of the safe leader Podcast. I’m Mark McBride Wright, your host, and I’m delighted today to be joined by Sally Walters, who is a discipline lead for Civil and Structural UK and Ireland water at Stantec, a global design and consulting firm. She brings 22 years of experience in civil and water engineering. Sally leads the technical delivery of high quality engineering projects for clients in the water industry, with extensive experience in managing regional teams on civil engineering initiatives, particularly in water and wastewater infrastructure development. Sally is deeply committed to developing and empowering the next generation of engineers in advancing the recognition and standing of the engineering profession. She’s a fellow of the Institution of Civil Engineers, a fellow of the Institution of Engineering and Technology, and also a fellow of the women’s Engineering Society, as well as being a chartered civil engineer, actively working in and involved in these various professional bodies and committees, she contributes her expertise to the wider engineering community. In 2023 Sally was honored as a finalist for the top 50 women in engineering award with a focus on safety and security, and she’s also become a visiting professor at the University of Exeter Sally. Welcome, welcome.

Sally Walters 1:32
Thank you very much, Mark, really.

Mark McBride-Wright 1:35
So I think we, we we’ve spoken, we’ve been connected on LinkedIn for a long time, but I can’t remember if we’ve ever met in person or probably been on calls together.

Sally Walters 1:52
Yeah, I think I connected. I think there was, might have been a Weiss women in construction and engineering Awards where I think I saw you speak at a sort of day seminar before and then connected through LinkedIn and passionately been stalking you, probably since then, and following you. And I think we may have been in similar events or speaking, but not, I don’t think we’ve ever directly spoken.

Mark McBride-Wright 2:18
So do you know that is a classic example of where we need to start building connection between communities more, which is why I’m so glad I’ve started this podcast, because do you know when that was? That was 2018

Sally Walters 2:30
oh gosh, it was.

Mark McBride-Wright 2:32
It was at Heathrow Airport, at the women in construction engineering awards, and myself, Diego, I think, from WSP, was on the panel, and I forget who else, but we were basically there to help. You know, all these women at the top of their game, at the judges day, doing their presentations, not everyone could be interviewed at the same time. So we had these panels, right? We had, like this leadership panel, and that’s when I came to it, wow, I can’t believe it had been that long ago.

Sally Walters 3:05
Well, I think the main thing I took away from that was actually that connection to yourself and following what you’ve been doing. So those panel sessions were brilliant, just because it broke up the day for those people who are being interviewed. But actually, for me, it was sort of much more about actually, I’d like to connect with them and connected with the UK constructability program. And I think I became a sort of one of their mentors for a year, or sort of their role models as well the UK construction team. So it was a great event, actually. But again, that connections of connectivity is pretty important, actually. So

Mark McBride-Wright 3:38
if we so, I want us to come up to, you know, the role that mentors play and inspiration and everything, and what importance these events play in building community. But before, before we get into the sort of present day and now in the future, let’s go back to the young and did you, you know, did you always want to be an engineer? Or was it something you came to later on in life? Or, yeah, how you got to where you’re at now? Did

Sally Walters 4:10
I always want to be an engineer? No, passionately, not. My backstory is, I’ve got a family of engineers, so I knew my father was a professor of civil engineering at the University of Exeter. Full Circle. Come back to that later. My uncles, I’ve got relatives all in the sort of engineering science profession, grandparents, mother in sort of all in engineering teachers. So it was sort of embedded in me, the stem side of things. But I grew up in this passionate I don’t want to be an engineer. I do not want to be I’m probably trying to desperately re big, rebel against my my destiny. So when I was about 15 or 16, I can remember having a dinner table conversation about, what are you doing with your GCSEs? And I done the science and maths, and I was planning my A levels. Knew I wanted to do chemistry, biology, and I’d done it. French, or I thought, better do mass just in case. At that time, actually, was sort of a bit like, I want to be a, I actually wanted to be a chemical engineer. And I wanted to work on really weirdly, I wanted to work on oil rigs in the North Sea. I think there was some program like, kind of oil rig platform. It might have been red, red Bravo, or something about deep like oil rigs in the North Sea. And then I sort of suddenly realized that maybe that wasn’t a great glamorous lifestyle, and I didn’t want to do that. So I ended up doing a host of a levels chemistry, biology and maths and French, and didn’t really know what to do. So thought I better go to university. Better do something, right? I’ll settle on civil engineering as a stop gap. And, you know, I went to the University late 90s, early 2000s and it was very popular to go into management consultancy. I was going to work for Price Waterhouse Cooper or Anderson Consulting, and go and be in London and loads of money. And then just realized it wasn’t for me. Did my degree got to my second year of my degree, and thought I better actually get some work experience. So I started then getting into consultancy. I went to work for consultant, then I went and worked in construction. And thought, this isn’t too bad. I’ll stay at University for my fourth year to do my Masters, then I’ll see where I’ll go. And I wanted to go traveling, and so I was like, right. Well, I need a job to come back to. So I sort of, by default, got a job in construction and sort of Costa and applied to them, brilliant company. They held a job for me while I spent six months traveling, and I sort of came back. Was like, I do this for a bit and then see. So my journey into it wasn’t, it wasn’t a, yes, I’m passionate about being an engineer. I’m not going to go in. Wasn’t one of the sort of, sort of engineering and saving the world at that point in time. I was like, it’s just a way to pay off my debt of my student loan and pay off my traveling fees at that point. And

Mark McBride-Wright 6:50
you know what? I think that is so refreshing to hear the fact that you you don’t have to have an origin story of why you want to be an engineer, that you want to save the world. Because, you know, yeah, I mean, that wasn’t my motivation for coming into engineering, either. And I think, well, I mean, with with all the with the need for attraction of people into the sector, the people that we often see put out now in campaigns on social media and everything. It’s as if there is that because they’re achieving such great things, it can seem a little bit too overwhelming or daunting that, you know, maybe, that maybe my ambition isn’t to, you know, solve wastewater management in in Africa, you know, maybe I just want to have a simple life where I’m earning my living and doing an occupation that pays a good wage, and that can be an equally valuable, valid reason to come into engineering, you know,

Sally Walters 7:53
absolutely. And it’s interesting, because I think it changes at different points in your career as well as you sort of become, you know, as your sort of needs are met, you know, once you’ve sort of maybe got a house, or you’ve got your family, then your sort of drives change as well. But there’s absolutely nothing wrong with going into going to career. You know what? I’m good at science, I’m good at engineering, I’m creative, I’m good at math. I like, Ah, I want to solve some problems. I want to be challenged, but I don’t want to save the world. I just want to do a job, earn some money, get on the property ladder, and those are absolutely as valid reasons as other people. And we should be saying actually, every avenue and every drive and every passion or every sort of purpose has, you know, it’s all valid. Do

Mark McBride-Wright 8:33
you think, yeah, do you think we might, ironically, be turning people off by position in engineering as this? You know, you have to be in it to want to change the world. I don’t know, maybe. And thought for this week,

Sally Walters 8:48
maybe, yeah, I probably haven’t thought of, I think that maybe, as you say, maybe sometimes we give two perfect role models, and we sort of, you know, we’re appealing to some part of the marketplace. And there are some people that like just, you know, if that doesn’t appeal to me. I don’t want to be that spokesperson. Maybe they’re too perfect, and maybe that does put some people off. Or maybe some people think, well, that’s not me, so maybe it isn’t a career for me. And you know, it’s, it’s absolutely a career for everyone, actually, and it’s great. It’s so such a versatile career. But, yeah, you don’t have to have it mapped out. Think True.

Mark McBride-Wright 9:21
True, the squiggly career movement that I’ve seen get a bit of traction, that you know, you can have a squiggly journey into engineering, and also, like, once you’re here and working within it, do you find yourself still doing a lot of technical work? Or is it? What I usually see is people who become more experienced, like yourself, you move into more program leadership, project management, oversight and things like that.

Sally Walters 9:50
Yeah? So I probably much, yeah, the more significant proportion of my time is sort of now people leadership, program leadership and. Yeah, but it is problem solving, just in a different level. So it’s still for me, I it was interesting because I had a debate with someone a while ago who was like, I don’t see myself as a civil engineer anymore, because I’m not doing the on the tool civil engineering type of the thought that, you know, like not doing slab design, or not designing pipelines or but then I was like, but I’m a civil engineer, and I’ve always like, now, you know, that’s my home, that’s my discipline, that’s my sort of where I naturally would tag myself as my profession, but I’m helping in these upfront looking at, look at those need statements we’re trying to solve the problem at the top end, going, actually, what’s, what’s the what’s going on? Let’s delve into that, and then helping bring the people in and the right people. And part of the problem solving is getting the right people, getting the right solution, and getting them in the right direction to then do maybe more of a sort of everyday engineering. So yeah, I have, I’ve moved into much more program and people leadership, but it is quite nice occasionally, because you do get do when you’re doing that program leadership, you do get to go into meetings and talk the technical. And when you get that, you know, there’s always the engineer in you that’s like, actually, Wright, can we go into the detail? And, oh, actually, have you thought about doing this? So it’s quite nice, and sort of get that buzz occasionally of being able to go in

Mark McBride-Wright 11:15
and you’re able to make the cross connections between different groups that you might then interact with across the business, I guess, by virtue of the role that you’ve got, you must interact with teams all around the country. You know you’ve got UK and Ireland in your in your remit. So that must bring with it such great regional diversity, but also technical diversity within the water sector.

Sally Walters 11:43
It’s a brilliant I’m driven by people and connections and sort of, you know, going and meeting our different teams in our different offices. And, you know, we have different depending on our clients we work with in the water business. We work with pretty much all the water utilities across the country, UK and and Ireland. They’ve all got different drivers. They’ve all got different priorities, different challenges. So you have different skill sets, whether it’s just, it’s not just civil engineering, which is my base sort of discipline. But you know, we work with urban drainage modelers, we work with sort of process engineers, we work with structural we work with environmentalists. We’ve worked with sort of asset planning and program management, so a whole, whole sector of it, and yeah, you have to connect with everyone to understand, actually, all of our projects are always multi disciplinary engineering projects and sort of environmentalist program project management, planning, environmental everything comes into it. So, yeah, you have to be involved with everyone. It’s great.

Mark McBride-Wright 12:44
So I don’t really know much about the water sector or the waste water sector. I see it when things go wrong and it hits the news, like most consumers, I guess. What can you tell us a bit about the water sector and how it’s set up, and what the opportunities.

Sally Walters 13:05
It’s a really exciting like sector. Actually, everyone always jokes when you say wastewater. It’s really great. It’s really glamorous. And everyone’s like, really I used to get the nickname of being called Dr poo because I was studying for a master’s in philosophy. Didn’t quite get to the deep PhD bit. So, but aside from that, it’s fascinating the water sector. Obviously, most people know we’ve got sort of our regional water companies, whether, sort of, you know, the big companies like Thames and southern in Yorkshire, we’ve got the Scottish water the UK and Ireland got Irish water and everything. So we’ve got all regional water companies they’re in, they’re set up into a five year frameworks, effectively, and it’s called this amp period, the asset management plan, which is their five year program. And so every five years, they come out with a new plan, and they’ve got a five year investment portfolio. And what we do is we work with them at all stages as that sort of plan. In that five year program, you tend to sort of bid for being on these big five year or 10 year frameworks with them to cover that work. Stantec is very pop, not very popular. We’ve been very successful in sort of bidding for sort of our frameworks. Now we’re about to go into the asset management year period eight they started when it went into privatization, which is we count the every five years now in the 40th year, I think so that will start in March 2025 and the investment that’s coming in amp eight is about double, if not triple, what we’ve had in previous amps to address quite a lot of the political challenges around sort of storm overflows, sort of occlusions in our rivers and seas that we’re seeing, and how we solve all that, and it’s a fantastic period, because, obviously, it’s not just waste water, it’s clean water, it’s human health. But there’s a lot more that you don’t see. There’s a lot of environmental programs that are done that, sort of, you know, Guardian. A sort of like, you know, the environment where you’ve got reservoirs, where you’ve got sort of peatlands, peat bogs, and catchment systems and management. So I think everyone thinks it’s just, you know, the sewage treatment works, and your pipeline or your water treatment works, and your networks. But actually there’s an awful lot of sort of additional stuff that’s done around that, and obligations that we all help them with. And so we need people and engineers who are involved in every single element of that. So they’re really exciting nature based solutions that we’re doing, sort of like green solutions, helping companies drive to their carbon targets through to sort of, you know, the exciting engineering projects of building storage and treatment works that they need, but looking at different ways of doing it as well. So

Mark McBride-Wright 15:43
what’s the what’s the current diversity status, or, well, if we stay a level above, like, what’s the skills deficit? Is there a skills deficit in the water sector? Is there an under supply of engineers or people interested in the sector. What’s the composition of the sector? You know, what? Yeah,

Sally Walters 16:07
like any other engineering, probably civils engineering is the most diverse, I would probably say, of all their engineering disciplines. You know, maybe we get stretched to 20% in terms of female male. But obviously there are other diversity, mixes and sort of balances, the water sector, well, in engineering in general, to meet all the skills challenges across all of our sectors. I think, you know, we’re probably short about 40,000 engineers. I think we’re I think the Royal Academy of Engineering did a study, and we’re just not getting the supply of engineers in. When you look at sort of the engineers leaving, not returning to the business and the skills gap. We have that huge skills challenge in the water water sector. Obviously, publicity doesn’t help, because people see it as a challenging environment to work in. I think when you’re in it, it’s hugely rewarding, and what you’re doing is actually to changing the benefit for society. And I think, you know, there is a recognition of what the engineers are doing is actually trying to make things better and trying to sort of drive that change. But yeah, we’ve got our diversity challenges. We’ve got our sort of all levels, and sort of trying to attract people. I know we joke about it, but is it a sexy career? Probably not. But there’s huge, huge benefits that you are fundamentally providing water that people need for. You know, safe drinking water has to be fit for human consumption. It’s it’s human health. You’re trying to make improvements to the environment and balancing those sustainable challenges of how do we grow? How do we keep what we’re used to in society, whilst keeping the environment addressing those climate crisis challenges that we’ve got as well? So that’s a challenge. Yeah, tell us

Mark McBride-Wright 17:55
a bit about then your role at the Women’s Engineering Society, congratulations on being in the top 50 women in engineering. That the safety and security that’s That’s fascinating. How, how has the work? How has that accolade helped you professionally? You know what it must help with? You know some of those skills shortages that you mentioned, having lists like this, being able to spotlight the achievements of women engineers must be a great way for to actually signpost to young people. Look, if you can, you know, the whole phrase, you can’t, if you can’t see it, you can’t be it. Well, you know, this is designed to show that people are being it, and therefore you can be it, you know,

Sally Walters 18:44
I think, I think you’ve actually hit the nail on the head there. It’s, it’s that advocacy role. So sort of awards like that were fantastic. It was really great to be recognized, sort of recognize that, you know, I think safety comes at all levels, and everyone, all of us, have a responsibility. But being involved with wears and sort of these awards absolutely allow you to demonstrate to people you can you can achieve. You can be a female in sort of engineering, there are great opportunities. You can be yourself, hopefully, sort of being a role model, but seeing authentic role models as well. And that’s what I hope, and you can promote them. So going along to events showing children that, actually, you know, we get images. Great. You could, you can be on site. It can be boots and hard hats and driving cranes, absolutely. You can do that. You can be in an office and it’s clean and, you know, it’s just sitting at a computer, working with teams and designs. It’s going on site. There’s all sort of levels, but it’s showing people that, you know, there can be really rewarding careers. You can get a lot out of it, and you can just be yourself. But as you say, highlighting and showing and demonstrating that there are people doing this every single day, and it doesn’t have to be some big, amazing, iconic project that you’re working on or, you know. So every day there are superheroes, sort of working on projects that you might not even know about, and stuff. So I think that’s what’s really key. And sort of working with, Wes on those role model programs, and sort of those going into sort of promotional opportunities just to, sort of, as you say, Keep on banging the drum. We’ve been doing it for years, but we still need to do it, and we need role models across across the sort of demographics to show that people, it isn’t accessible careers, and it’s a great career.

Mark McBride-Wright 20:26
But the recent data, though, from engineering UK, shows that the number of women are is at the highest level ever leaving the profession in the age, you know, 35 to 54 age bracket. I think it was from the August 2024 data set. So, you know, we do all this work trying to attract people into a system which fundamentally isn’t like retaining the individuals that have come in. So I wonder, what are some of the barriers that still exist to that retention, what do you think?

Sally Walters 21:07
Well, there’s quite a lot. And there is, you know, it’s difficult because, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m 44 I’m sort of mid that age band. I’ve had my son, he’s 12. So I was early 30s. I’ve been through that challenge, and I didn’t put my hit career on hold. I went part time. I don’t see it as putting on hold. I don’t begrudge doing that. It can be challenging to find the right employer that can support sort of those flexible arrangements. I think, you know, the COVID effect of being able to do much more hybrid working should have made it easier. Maybe it hasn’t, I’m not sure. But the barriers are sort of, you know, the want, if you’ve got childcare or caring responsibilities of any level, a lot of sort of aging parental populations as well, those challenges and the onus that falls on sort of yourselves and family members, potentially, and it is a difficult time. I’ve just, sort of, you know, I’m happy to talk about it. I’ve been going through the perimenopause, and I don’t think there’s a lot more awareness coming up to it now. And I think, you know, sometimes you get over saturated with conversations about it, but it is a huge impact. And moving into that phase, it does affect you, especially if you don’t get the support or the sort of, you know, opportunity to talk about it, or even awareness of some of the symptoms and the build up are very slow, and can actually challenge you in sort of, it’s challenged me in my own role. So there’s a lot of factors I think that can make it difficult. And if you’ve not got the right support network or the right environments, it can be quite hard work, and you’re naturally coming to a point in your career where you may be stepping up the ladder as well. And sometimes I saw an interesting post on LinkedIn, and I’m not sure I disagree. Actually, it was saying that, you know, sometimes when you’re looking over the barrier or the wall to the next level or those senior leadership roles, they do sometimes come with more travel, more expectation of being further away. And if you are a sort of a parent, do you want to be putting yourself into that position? And maybe, you know, maybe the balance of in a in a relationship you’re in, it doesn’t allow you to do that. So do you stay? And so I think there are quite a lot of nuances around and I’d like, I’m not sure those are the answers, but those are certainly sort of my personal experiences of I know I’ve been challenged around my childcare, around my son, and my commitments, you know, my own personal health journey and understanding that impact on it. And I wasn’t. I’m very, very lucky. I’ve had a fantastic line manager and support network in Stantec, actually, and it wasn’t until I was talking to a colleague and a friend, a friend outside but for another company, when I said, Oh, I talked to my line manager about it because I didn’t feel I wanted to be honest, because I thought I was being a little bit irrational and maybe my judgment. And before I started HRT, and I was like, actually, I don’t think I was quite not sane, but sometimes emotionally charged with some of the decisions. And my friend was saying, well, you’re lucky. You can talk to your line manager. I would never be able to do that. And so I think, yeah, I’ve been fortunate, and maybe other people don’t have that experience as well.

Mark McBride-Wright 24:15
I’m really glad you said that, because that was I was gonna, yeah, was my next question. We we’ve seen in the last four, I would say four or five years. You know, menopause has really been had, is having a light now shone on it. I’ve read some really interesting things on this recently. There was a LinkedIn post yesterday around someone where her friend had unfortunately taken her own life because she just couldn’t handle the what she was going through with the menopause the perimeter. Menopause. And not a lot of people recognize that 25% of women who will go through menopause will experience deep depression, you know, and when you think about the compound inequity that’s exists through, you know, male privilege, you know, it getting dismissed so flippantly, you know as just one of those things you know that you just have to endure when actually it can have such catastrophic consequences for people when not managed correctly, and the fact that that management is now available, but isn’t being accessed, because there’s still a taboo around even being able to talk about it. So I mean, Matt, the I watched a couple of years ago, Davina McCall did a brilliant documentary on menopause, and I think it led to the not the patches, but the cream that you can put on that absorbs through the skin, selling out, you know, and then there being a shortage of supply of it and, you know. But then I read another article as well, talking about companies are clever, you know, Generation Z, young women coming through the ranks now are the first generation that I’ve got the most. What’s the word dispensable income? You know, you know what I mean, like income that you can spend as disposable Thank you. Disposable income. And so, you know these companies are market and all these products and things to you, and they’ll get your money. But guess what? Your your headaches and everything and pains and all that are still going to be there. You know, this stuff’s a bit of a fad, and does it actually really help? So it’s almost like a market being created around, around menopause inclusion. So we, we’ve, we’ve created equal engineers, a menopause network, a cross sector network group on, on menopause. It’s my colleague, fayon Dixon, who wanted to set it up. And I was like, absolutely, you know, I have no experience in this space, so it needs to be led by someone, you know, living through it. I’m a big believer in that grounded in lived experience, when it comes to the leadership of these network groups, and she calls it fan club. She calls it fan club because, you know, she gets hot sometimes, and she loves her fan and brilliant

Sally Walters 27:31
name. I’ve seen some awful ones, so which actually just make me look at it and go, really, I don’t want to be in that group. But

Mark McBride-Wright 27:37
do you know what we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve had people who you know have had to go through the menopause in their 20s because they’ve been diagnosed with endometriosis or something. So to alleviate those pains, they’ve chosen to have a hysterectomy, and so that’s then induced menopause early on in life. So then the reconciliation of making decisions on, well, I’m never going to have a family then, or I’m not going to have my family in the way in which I had originally thought I would. So there is a whole chapter, is a whole field of conversation to happen here and tell you now straight men that are in heterosexual relationships with wives or girlfriends, partners, whatever, you know. I don’t think those conversations is even happening. You know, the comfort level to have that, you know. And so I think this is me. I think we’re at a really exciting time, if that’s the right adjective, when it comes to women’s equality in the workplace, with this conversation now happening, because I hope we can see a real, confidently supportive network of men now coming forward to to support workplace policies. That means the conversation can be had. If it’s something someone’s

Sally Walters 28:58
it should be being had. Because, you know, there’s a whole generation of, as you say, heterosexual men who, if they’re in relationships or sort of married or partners, who at some point will go through this. And you know, as you said, there are women who’ve gone through endometriosis and who have had had early hysterectomies. There are cancer survivors who get go through chemotherapy, sort of triggers early menopause. But actually, you know, the perimenopause can start from the late 30s. We don’t realize our hormone levels drop. So, you know, you can be living with that slow build up. And I never understand why there’s a stigma or a shame around it, because it’s all just chemicals. It’s all chemical reactions within the body. It’s a natural you know, sometimes our chemicals in our bodies all get mixed up, which is why we have challenges with, sort of our mental health as well and the neuro receptors. But it is chemical. It’s not it’s not made up. It’s there, it’s real, and it’s and then go through sort of similar when their testosterone levels drop and their challenges, but that affects us so quickly, those difference in. Balances in hormones. And it was so sort of finely tuned, as you’re right, women are dismissed quite easily about it. And I was dismissing my own symptoms because they creep up on you and you don’t realize and they could be similar to any symptoms, and if you don’t track them, I’ve got a thyroid issue. Similar symptoms track with that, with the sort of the perimenopause. And it wasn’t until I was actually sort of almost breaking down in tears on a phone call with a sort of colleague, and she said, Sally, have you gone to the doctors? And you know, we talked a little bit about perimenopause, maybe it was just go to the doctors and just talk to them, because if you get on HRT within two weeks, you’ll feel human again. And I can remember, and I went to the doctors, and they said, Well, let’s try it, because there’s no harm. You know, there’s very few side effects, but, and it was, it was a miracle. Within a week, I felt more human, and actually, subsequent to that, I’ve spoken to other people, and they’ve gone on it, and they’re like, You know what, I feel there’s no you don’t feel physically different, but mentally, you feel like a cloud is lifted, or you feel empowered again, and it’s like if I hadn’t gone through that, then I probably would be looking at my career going I can’t take the next step. I couldn’t take that step up, and I couldn’t take that challenge, because actually, I can’t deal with the pressure, or it feels too much. So actually for me, there was a big step in that actually going right. I now feel stronger and more confident and happier and more relaxed than maybe I did two years ago. Changes in roles as well, and a bit more change of emphasis and support from the company. But actually I’m feeling like, Come on, bring it on. I’m ready, yeah, Howard, and for the next phase of my career then maybe I was maybe three or four years ago.

Mark McBride-Wright 31:39
So it sounds to me like there needs to be some sort of campaign, initiative, program, mentoring. I don’t know what the word is, but some spotlight focused on this, because this links to another point that comes to front of mind when it comes to gender equality, we always talk about the positive stuff or the opportunity, but I read such a good book by she’s now become a good friend. Susie levy Mind the gap on, and it’s a very good introduction to inclusion of different demographics, and she shares her perspective as a white woman you know, learning about different groups, but in the chapter on gender equality, she makes the point that until our workplace programs start addressing the darker side of inclusion, the domestic violence against women and young children, young girls, you know, sexual assault, sexual harassment, predatory behavior, all that sort of crap, quite frankly, that women have to put up with, until we start talking about that in The same conversation as the barriers, because that is some of the barriers we’re not really then going to properly be holding men accountable for, then not doing the self surveillance between one another about what is and is not acceptable. And given that we are a gender imbalance in engineering, massively, 85% men, 15% women. You know that is not happening, and until that happens, baking in the conversation that we’ve just had about menopause and the barriers that women go through, I just think we’re going to keep doing these programs and initiatives expecting something to change.

Sally Walters 33:40
And do you know what? Actually, it’s very prevalent hiring. I work with the institutions as well. So the institution civil engineers, Institution of Engineering Technology, Institute of Water, and there’s been a bit of a survey that has been done quite recently around sort of, you know, the experience of sort of females across the age range within the engineering industry and sort of their sexual harassment. Are you still experiencing? Do you experience from the forms of, sort of, you know, the microaggressions to, you know, being the butt of a sexist joke that’s not directed at you, but in the room with you, through to the direct, sort of indirect, sort of, like, you know, that sort of, you know, people not taking no. When you say no, I don’t want to come for a drink with you. No, I don’t want to go out with you. Through to the direct sort of input, you know, sexual assault situations. And it still happens, and it still happens when, alarmingly, the percentage of sort of, 85% of women have reported some form of aggression, whether that be the butt of a sexist joke or a wolf whistle through to the much more serious and the law is actually changing in the UK, or has been changed so much more onus on sort of employers to be far more proactive, rather than reactive around it, which is fantastic. But we all need to have that conversation. We need to be realistic, and we need to be challenging and driving that, you know, not, not scaring women off, but we need to be saying to the men, actually, you know, that that isn’t acceptable, and we shouldn’t still have to do it, but we still do, and even to the point of we’ve, I’ve had this conversation quite a lot around, you know, the terminology around male conversations, of He’s ambitious, is ambitious being code word for aggressive, whereas a woman or she’s pretty aggressive, why can’t she be ambitious? And we just find that, and I think it’s baked in. And I some, I genuinely think, and sometimes, and this isn’t excusing it, some people don’t even realize that they’re doing that. But, you know, you pick up. I was in a meeting the other day, and someone was called guys girls. And I was like, actually, calling the girls Girls is about saying, like, you might as well be addressing as boys and girls. I know there’s a natural flow sometimes to saying Guys and girls, but actually, I’m not a girly. I’m not a girl. I’m far beyond it. I can tell you, I don’t get ID for it alcohol at the supermarket anymore. So there’s nowhere near anywhere, you know, but it’s all those levels of there’s from that level of change, which is minimal harm, through to the significant change. We do need to speak up, and we do need to support people, and we need the industry. We need everyone to drive that change, whether it’s our businesses, whether it’s the institutions, being very much more vocal about it. You know, really good at saying, let’s do this initiative for women in engineering day. Let’s drive this to increase the percentage of women in engineering. But we quite discretely, sort of, we do these surveys, but we don’t communicate the survey findings or the next steps because we don’t want to offend or publish, publicize the fact that this is still happening, and it it happens across a lot of those sort of gender diversity challenges and sort of, you know, misogyny, racism and whatever. Yeah, there is a dark side to every side of our businesses aren’t there, and we do have to talk about them

Mark McBride-Wright 37:01
and take action on them. Yes, a big, big believer in linking it all back to safety, I really am. I just, you know, it’s, it’s why I’m doing the work that I do now, because we would never tolerate a high rate of loss of life due to any physical hazards, you know. So why should we tolerate people being in a mental space where they feel like they cannot exist and therefore they’re contemplating taking their own life due to a lack of psychological safety and being able to be open so Why would, why would we allow perpetrators continue to have and behave in this way in our organizations. You know, we have communication mechanisms, supposedly in the industry for escalating things, for reporting hazards. We should have a similar sort of process in within our businesses, for elevating these these as, of course, the real extreme business case is, is bullying, harassment, sexual harassment becomes employment tribunals and reputational damage if an individual chooses not to be silenced by an NDA, and then, you know, you’ve got all the damage that comes with that.

Sally Walters 38:20
It’s an interesting, yeah, it was a conversation I had with a colleague a couple of months ago, actually, around those HR sort of, you know, when those, those those challenges do come up, and when you’ve had a few people HR elements is, why do we not treat those, you know, like a widow, like in a health and safety, as you say, like me, a myth. You know, we have these situations where, sort of, you know, there’s a grievance, maybe from a sort of colleague to another colleague. We We for the sake of, sort of, you know, obviously their confidentiality, things linked with, like employees and its personal data and but actually also, at the same time, we should be investigating those as this is an ear miss what’s gone on, what’s happened. Let’s treat this, investigate it, not just from the individual perspective, but as a business about the systems and the processes to actually avoid it happening again. So yeah, fully there it should be. It shouldn’t be allowed. You know, everyone needs to be able to come to work and be their natural, authentic selves in a safe environment. And why wouldn’t we want that? And it just feels that, yeah,

Mark McBride-Wright 39:21
how can we make that happen? Though,

Sally Walters 39:28
I would love to say, we just make it happen, but it won’t happen. Will it? You? You’ve got it, but there is a financial impact to all of this. Isn’t there? And I think fundamentally, businesses are driven by finance, whether it you know, the financial consequences of it. There are the moral and ethical things, and I think most of us do that, but as a corporate entities, it’s the numbers, isn’t it? And all of this can be tagged back to it. You know, you say, an individual leaving a company, there’s always a cost to recruitment and hiring and replacing an individual. There’s always costs. You say. Could, heaven forbid it ever gets to that point of tribunals massive costs, but actually, the time and costs of management, of just dealing with, you know, challenges and HR issues is huge, even if it doesn’t even lead to the loss of an employee. It can take hours and hours. So if you added up those costs, we should be looking at going okay as well as the right thing to do and what we want to do for our retention issues, we should be looking at these things from a right. If we monetize it and go actually, guys, we’re going to be spending five grand just to resolve this thing over that three months. It’s ridiculous. How do we do it properly? How do we do it, you know? How would we manage it on a health and safety perspective? Yeah, I’m not sure. I’m just thinking off the top of my head, no, no, I love that. Lately,

Mark McBride-Wright 40:42
these, these, you’ve no idea the number of ideas that are getting generated here in my brain for what we could do subsequently, you know, as a dot join our collaboration entity. I, I, yeah, I love it. I love it. I think there’s heaps of ideas in there. I love that analogy of, you know, treating it like an incident investigation, near miss, lessons learned, share the findings, no blame culture. You know, doesn’t happen again, or it might happen again, but if it does happen again, we’re better prepared to then respond to it quicker, and we can then build on the learning from it happening again, and iteratively improve behaviors over time that then we gradually phase out these, these attitudes. You know, it’s like the seat belt, isn’t

Sally Walters 41:34
it? The seat belt when it was first introduced, no one wanted to but then it made law, and actually now we just wouldn’t consider not but we know the severe impacts and risks. You know, you’ve got to introduce these things, but, you know, it takes time. But for me, I as businesses, and this isn’t just, this isn’t like taking it from sante, but lots of businesses have been in and been around where people are involved. We don’t like dealing with bad you know, we don’t like giving bad news. We don’t like being the bad person. So actually, people management is inherently done poorly wherever you go, because people don’t like to say, actually, do you know that behavior is wrong, or we need to change that behavior? Or actually, you need to, you know you need to do better at your job. Actually, you’re not performing. We’re so scared of doing that, and I am as well. I’m terrible at giving critical feedback. I you know, you know, you’ve got to build up the courage to do it. You know, you pull on your jacket and your big girls pants and say, Wright, okay, got to deal with this, but it costs businesses so much money and so much time, and it’s not fair to individuals, either by just allowing things to continue, and sort of reputations people can get based on all of this. So in theory, it’s a win win, if you actually address it early. But we’ve got to train people. We’ve got to develop people. We’ve got to create a culture where, as you say, you can challenge these things, but it’s challenging the right way, and it’s actually about driving change for a positive and actually growing and helping develop people so they know their behaviors are maybe wrong or the attitudes are right, and challenge them, because we’re all people based on unconscious bias as well, and a nurture nature thing. So not excusing behaviors. Some behaviors can’t be excused, but you know, some people, it’s just about change, helping them learn and grow and develop

Mark McBride-Wright 43:25
Absolutely. Oh, there’s so many ideas here. So tell us a bit about your visit and professorship at Exeter.

Sally Walters 43:34
Yeah. So I’m fairly new into it. So started it in sort of september 2024 so sort of transitioning into my first year in it. It’s fantastic. I’ve got a great, glamorous title, Professor of innovation, intelligent innovation or something, but that’s based on the concepts that there are four pillars of innovation. So it’s not just, you know, it’s people, product, processes, and I can’t even remember the fourth one, but I think it’s, you know, around the application

Mark McBride-Wright 44:07
a long time ago. I know I’ve been there, I know it. You’re like, Oh, what did we write again? Because it’s a day a month, notionally, isn’t it for a year, for three years. So it’s not your full time role. It doesn’t occupy your brain 100% of the time. So absolutely, I get

Sally Walters 44:25
it. It’s very much about transitioning that sort of industry, learning into academia, so and vice versa, taking it back, but really sort of helping the students actually develop the skills quite early to actually help them take the academic side of it into the industrial world, and what we do with what they learn at university, how we’re sort of using, sort of processes, systems, how we operate and how we work. Because think when you sort of start at universities like you’re very fresh from school, it’s a whole new world. Working and learning and reality. If you think back to what we learned at university, how much do we actually use even within the first year you need those concepts. But actually it’s translating those concepts into a business world, and that could be quite a scary transition. Yeah, yeah, it’s a lot around doing that working. So it’s actually very active live. So it’s working. Lecturing for the students about this is actually an introduction to what the industrial world is in terms of consultancy or engineering, and how you might involve. I think the first lecture I ever did was on the fourth industrial revolution and how we use it in consultancy. A lot of its digital, internet, things, big data, which we do every day, and it’s trying to make it go. Guys, what you’re doing and what you’re absolutely set up to as this generation is what we need and what we’re doing every day, and actually what what we’re doing now will be out of date by the time they come to graduate in four years time, and they’ll be much more through to sort of working with the lecturers to then go actually into your course modules. Maybe we could get some field studies, or maybe we could do some projects and sponsorship. So it’s very much looking at processes, systems, bringing people in and making them more worldly, I suppose, helping them bridge that gap.

Mark McBride-Wright 46:17
Brilliant. Sounds brilliant. Sounds really, really good. I yeah, I’m two years into my one at UCL, and some in my final year, sort of figuring out what legacy will be. And yeah, so I’ve got got some ideas on the tools that I want to leave behind for the university to use, but also for for me to then use with other universities in terms of helping the curriculum on embedding Ed and I and some assessments that they can do as part of their design projects and so on and so forth. So, yeah, it’s a nice it brings a nice little dimension of diversity to your professional life at this point in your career, because it helps you, like, reconnect, but actually full circle, you said for you, you studied at Exeter, didn’t you? So what’s it like going back to where you were you studied?

Sally Walters 47:09
Do you know, I think I’m intrinsically linked through my whole life. I think sometimes, you know, you get a golden thread, they say in stories, or when you’re doing bids, yeah, and stuff. I think Exeter University is the golden thread in my life. My father actually started working at Exter University before I was even born, although we were based in Chester, and when I was three months old, we moved to Exeter, and he’s been at the University until he retired. I can remember growing up visiting his labs at the uni. I then did my first degree at Nottingham University in Nottingham, I got my masters, and then I’m after a couple of years of working construction, I went to do a knowledge transfer partnership at Exeter University and did my masters of philosophy there. So I sort of arced back at that point. Then I’ve been based in and around Exeter since sort of doing that. PH, that, m, Phil, sorry, masters of philosophy because I was too lazy to do the doctorate. I just couldn’t. I’m not very good at, like, staying power. I love doing the research for a couple of years, but I couldn’t have done the PhD. Yeah, yeah. So I decided to go into the commercial world and some money rather than doing more research. But loved it, and loved that being around that environment, because actually, you know that learning is great, but just not for the long term. And so over the last sort of 20 odd years, I’ve touched base, back and forth, done the old guest lecture, and then an old colleague who’s now at the University. I was talking to him, and he’d asked me to come and present something, and I’ve been there for a day, a poster presentation or something. I was like, I love this environment. I love the energy that you get from being around the students. And just that whole there is a buzz to it, sort of, you know, that energy, just That’s all I can say. That energy and being around them, you feel so inspired. And, you know, I wanted to be a bit more involved with it. And he said, Look, I think we could get something. We could maybe do a visiting professor. It’d be great. Your knowledge, your leadership, bringing it to the university, talking to the students about it. And sort of my opportunity as, sort of, you know, being there, just, yeah, just brilliant. And that’s where it came from. And so, yeah, I’ve gone sort of winding thread all the way through. So now I can say to my father, who was a genuine professor, that I’m now the second Professor Walters at Exeter University.

Mark McBride-Wright 49:32
Fantastic, fantastic, right. Quick Fire questions. Then, what is the most rewarding part of your job,

Sally Walters 49:41
people,

Mark McBride-Wright 49:44
the people. What’s one habit that has helped you stay organized and efficient as a leader,

Sally Walters 49:51
creating time in my diary, actually giving space to be able to do the thinking tasks, the strategic tasks. So being very purposeful about that.

Mark McBride-Wright 50:01
Tea or Coffee Tea. What’s the best piece of career advice you’ve ever received?

Sally Walters 50:09
It was probably two don’t rush into management too early in your career, because you’ll still have another 20 years to do it and be curious. Stay curious about everything, about your learning, your development and people,

Mark McBride-Wright 50:22
what’s your go to? Productivity? Hack,

Sally Walters 50:27
create time in my diary?

Mark McBride-Wright 50:30
Yeah, probably is that? What book or resource would you recommend to someone interested in water engineering or leadership?

Sally Walters 50:39
It was probably a resource. It’s podcasts. I am obsessed by them, and I’ve read numerous books, loads of them. I couldn’t necessarily recommend a specific one, because podcasts listen to them, leadership podcasts, high performance podcasts, any podcast, safer podcast, just they’re great to put on when you’re on a train or you’re driving somewhere and just being able to learn without necessarily having to read the

Mark McBride-Wright 51:06
books. Yeah, oh, love that. I find myself sorry I said I do quick fire. I find myself in the car sometimes being like, yes, yes. You know when, when I agree with a point that a guest is making or a host is making, and

Sally Walters 51:20
then you’re driving wants to write down that book or that in reference, and you have to go back and listen to it, because there are references they make. And you’re like, I need that one.

Mark McBride-Wright 51:29
If you could make one change in the engineering industry, what would it be?

Sally Walters 51:35
It disappoints me that we still need dei initiatives. I just you know that that’s that’s a world change, though, but I would like her to be a world where we don’t need the initiatives.

Mark McBride-Wright 51:48
And finally, what advice would you give to your younger self?

Sally Walters 51:53
Be patient. You know, it’s the journey. I know it’s stereotypical, and it’s probably something you say when you get to this age in this part of your career, but everything you know, the age old wonder opens and another opportunity. You don’t always see the benefits of those opportunities till you’re a bit further down the path and never compare. Don’t compare yourself to someone else, because your journey and your path is completely different. It might seem that they’re ahead, but you don’t know where they’re at. And maybe you’re just not meant to be there yet, because you’re not ready to be

Mark McBride-Wright 52:23
there. Very good point. Very good well, I’ve really enjoyed this. Sally, thank you very much for giving up your time today to come and talk. If any of our listeners want to get in touch with you, how do they do that?

Sally Walters 52:39
You can find me on LinkedIn. Is probably the easiest way to get in touch with me. I’m pretty, pretty active on there. So, yeah, just reach out to me.

Mark McBride-Wright 52:47
Fabulous. We’ll put, we’ll put a link in there, in the in the show notes. Thank you very much. Really enjoyed our chat. Thank you. It’s been great. I’m sure we will. We can pick up on some of this stuff that’s been mentioned, there’s been some brilliant ideas you’ve you’ve shown a light on, and I think working collectively, we can maybe try and make dei not part of our conversation. Well, that’s true, that’s true, but, you know, it’d be a great job to be done out of but the learning continues, doesn’t it? So we’ll even if you do shift, the work needs to be done to keep the shift in place. So there’s always, there’s always going to be work to be done.

Sally Walters 53:34
Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you, Mark, thank you.

Mark McBride-Wright 53:37
Thanks. Ellie. See you soon. Goodbye. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai